[pcf]

This thread is getting so bizarre I am having a hard time keeping up with it. I though a live concert was only bad if the venue was filled with people that were fully dressed. Now we are told that all live concerts suck anyway.

Some of the other crazy claims(sorry to quote you guys out of context):

“Movie theater sound generally sucks.”

“They use phase effects and digital reverbs to create a tight pocket of sound right smack dab in the sweet spot.” (this one is my favourite).

“No Audiophile would never listen to music sitting to one side, the same goes for HT,it is made for one viewer.”

“A live concert is about ambience and loud noise.”

“Whenever you fill a big room with a bunch of soft padded people, you're going to have mediocre sound.”

“Plain old stereo in just about any position in my living room sounds better than the best multi channel theaters I've been in.”

“The sound systems deployed in cinemas are nothing like HT”

“Too much of home theater is based around one person sitting in one chair.”

What’s next?

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everytime you go to the threatre or a live concert, you are in a big room filled with a bunch of soft padded people. Does that mean you only get good sound when you listen to recorded music at home?

Acoustic instruments almost always sound better live. Amplified concerts usually just sound loud. Movies almost never sound balanced in theaters.

It is a lot easier to achieve balanced frequency response in a small space than it is a large hall. If the instruments are unamplified, at least the imbalance is natural to the hall, not created by the response and placement of the speakers.

I've supervised sound mixes myself. It's a struggle to know whether what you hear on the mixing stage is going to bear any resemblance at all to the way it sounds to the public. Most movies are mixed in small theaters with no more than a dozen people sitting smack dab in the middle at the board. A large full theater has entirely different acoustics than a largely empty small one.

Mixing for television is even more unpredictable. You need to make sure the mix sounds good on everything from the tiny speaker in a TV set to a high end stereo system.

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif . Movies almost never sound balanced in theaters.

I don't agree at all. Can you give us some examples? I really am lost here.

 

[SiBurning]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcf /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread is getting so bizarre I am having a hard time keeping up with it. I though a live concert was only bad if the venue was filled with people that were fully dressed. Now we are told that all live concerts suck anyway. Some of the other crazy claims(sorry to quote you guys out of context): “Movie theater sound generally sucks.” “They use phase effects and digital reverbs to create a tight pocket of sound right smack dab in the sweet spot.” (this one is my favourite). “No Audiophile would never listen to music sitting to one side, the same goes for HT,it is made for one viewer.” “A live concert is about ambience and loud noise.” “Whenever you fill a big room with a bunch of soft padded people, you're going to have mediocre sound.” “Plain old stereo in just about any position in my living room sounds better than the best multi channel theaters I've been in.” “The sound systems deployed in cinemas are nothing like HT” “Too much of home theater is based around one person sitting in one chair.” What’s next?

I don't know, but over in the DIY forum, they're debating the effect that 3% vs 4% silver wire has on phase displacement of pseudo-surround headphones for the deaf.

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiBurning /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know, but over in the DIY forum, they're debating the effect that 3% vs 4% silver wire has on phase displacement of pseudo-surround headphones for the deaf.

Hard to top this one!

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most movies are mixed in small theaters with no more than a dozen people sitting smack dab in the middle at the board. A large full theater has entirely different acoustics than a largely empty small one.

Are you sure sound engineers and film makers would not take into consideration how a movie would sound in the cinema with a full audience? You think they just produce the soundtrack and hope for the best? Many internal screenings occur in big screening rooms before the release of a film. These screening rooms can hold a few hundred people and have some of the best audio/visual equipment. "Most movies almost never sound good in theaters?" I see movies often and really don't get that at all. Maybe my expectation is just too low.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't agree at all. Can you give us some examples? I really am lost here.

When you amplify sound and play it back through speakers in a large auditorium, it is extremely difficult to balance the frequency response overall, much less at every point in the room. Some parts of the room are subject to reflection off of the walls, receiving contradictory sound from two directions; others are in dead zones of high frequency attenuation due to lots of soft bodies or phase cancellation.

Usually, when they're designing theaters, they equalize for a sweet spot in the center and let the rest of the room do whatever it's going to do. Tweaking is almost always done in an empty theater, but when you put a crowd full of people into the seats, the acoustics totally change. To a theater, problems like phase shifts caused by reflection off walls, sound deadening by hundreds of bodies, and a wide spread of listening positions are all things they can't change, so they don't bother to deal with them at all. They shoot for a happy compromise and leave it at that.

In a home, where spaces are less cavernous and layout is more flexible, it is much easier to arrange the space for more balanced response- Room treatments, orientation of speakers and furniture placement all make a big difference. A medium sized empty room with one listening position in the center is extremely easy to control, even with multi-channel sound. In a room that also has to accommodate couches and multiple listening positions it becomes more difficult. In this sort of a situation, it is much easier to control two channels forming an auditory proscenium against one wall than it is to try to control a 360 degree sound field around all of the listeners in the room.

I'm trying to point out that balanced response is difficult even in the best of situations, but when you have five or seven separate channels, the only way it is going to sound balanced is to sit in a tightly defined spot in a carefully arranged listening room. That's cool if you are setting it up in your mom's basement and you only have one chair in the room, but if you are trying to get really good sound for your living room where you entertain others, good old two channel stereo is much better.

 

[ScarlettD]

I agree with bigshot! Great explanation!

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm trying to point out that balanced response is difficult even in the best of situations, but when you have five or seven separate channels, the only way it is going to sound balanced is to sit in a tightly defined spot in a carefully arranged listening room. That's cool if you are setting it up in your mom's basement and you only have one chair in the room, but if you are trying to get really good sound for your living room where you entertain others, good old two channel stereo is much better.

Most of the movie soundtrack are made to be played back in a multi channel system. It’s fine if you choose to play it back with two speakers, but it is not what the film makers and the sound engineers intended. In a multi channel set up, a high percentage of sound (up to 90%) comes from the centre speaker which is MISSING in a two channel set up. The centre channel helps to lock the dialog to the acting; the sound effect to the action. If you only have two speakers, they have to form a phantom image to give you an illusion that dialog and sound effect comes from a spot between them-not ideal in my book for movie viewing. Also any sound that pans across the screen has to travel from far left to right or vice versa. You can always spot the disconnection in the middle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wish that the focus in home theater wasn't so much on a lot of channels all around you, but rather on using a few in front in a well balanced way.

The sound on a movie soundtrack does not come at you equally from all around you. Most of it comes from the front. The objective is to tie you to the screen which is in front of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Plain old stereo in just about any position in my living room sounds better than the best multi channel theaters I've been in. (And I have been in some of the best projection facilities in Los Angeles.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been to screenings at the Frank Wells theater at Disney, which has some of the most advanced projection and sound in town, and although the picture is incredible, the sound still isn't as good as I get at home.

Big claims indeed but I will take you word for it. Remember one thing, no matter how good your two channel system is, it cannot playback the multi channel soundtrack the way filmmakers want you to hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Movie theater sound generally sucks. It's loud, but rarely balanced.

Now I have to strongly disagree with you and can’t take your word for it. I think I know fairly well what a top notch system sounds like in the theatre. I worked for Disney for two years and have been to many of their screenings. The sound didn’t suck for me.
For the past 10 years, my job requires me to spend 2 hours everyday at dailies in a screening room with the latest audio and video equipment. This screening room was approved by my old boss, Gloria Borders( Oscar winner and ex VP at Skywalker Sound).
On top of that I go to screening at different cinemas in the bay area and LA regularly so I do know what it sounds like in a theatre and am very happy with it most of the time. Even my local AMC did a really good job at Avatar which I saw there recently. In fact, most of time movies sound better in cinemas than in my halfway decent home theatre which I spent $25.000+ on (and it’s carefully calibrated).
Again , “Movie theater sound generally sucks.” is a sweeping generalization that I couldn’t disagree more.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Remember one thing, no matter how good your two channel system is, it cannot playback the multi channel soundtrack the way filmmakers want you to hear.

Luckily, most current movies suck anyway!

The best comparison though is live opera and classical music, which generally is mixed to two channel for CD release, and often also available as 5:1 video. Invariably, the two channel mix on the DVD is more balanced. I have 5:1 in my system as well, but if given the choice, I prefer a good stereo mix with a clear proscenium up front. It just makes more sense aurally and I can isolate instruments and singers in my head better if it isn't all around me swimming in a mush of hall reverb.

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Luckily, most current movies suck anyway!

I don't think so but after the above statement I know better to not argue with you any further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif The best comparison though is live opera and classical music, which generally is mixed to two channel for CD release, and often also available as 5:1 video. Invariably, the two channel mix on the DVD is more balanced. I have 5:1 in my system as well, but if given the choice, I prefer a good stereo mix with a clear proscenium up front. It just makes more sense aurally and I can isolate instruments and singers in my head better if it isn't all around me swimming in a mush of hall reverb.

Well said! I prefer listening to music in 2 channel most of the time also.