Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is no phantom center when you play the signal common to L/R through the center speaker.
True but again in practise identifying exactly what is in common to L/R can be affected by the phase coherence issues common to virtually all stereo music recordings and this issue also commonly affects the position of elements placed between the phantom centre and left or phantom centre and right positions.
Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Even if you just play dialog through the center speaker it has advantages over having no center speaker. Especially intelligibility of speech is impaired with the dips in the frequency response you get with stereo, as mentioned before.
It does have its advantages but in practice it also has it's disadvantages. For example, speech intelligibility is frequently even more impaired in 5.1 home systems, for the reasons I mentioned before, than it is by the frequency response dips you get with stereo. This is borne out by the number of customer complaints on this issue to broadcasters by consumers using 5.1 systems relative to those listening in stereo.
Furthermore, original 5.1 mixes generally incorporate L/R stereo and add a centre channel option, rather than completely replacing and eliminating the L/R stereo and it's associated phantom centre. The discrete centre channel is usually used for dialogue and Foley but for many other elements (frequently the incidental music for example) L/R stereo and it's associated phantom centre is still employed. For this reason, the L/R speakers in a home 5.1 system still has to be able to produce a coherent stereo image even when operating in 5.1 mode and playing back original 5.1 material. A fact bigshot appears blissfully unaware of!
Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I do not understand what you're objecting to really. You mentioned arrays of / diffuse speakers in cinemas before, which by definition don't allow for precisely locatable sounds. As the name suggests, they're mainly there to surround the listener / provide the atmosphere if you will. It's not impossible to put distinct sound events there but that is done seldom due to the problems mentioned.
It is virtually never the case that the information placed in the rear speakers is not stereophonically coherent, especially with background atmospheres! It seems like you don't know what an "atmosphere" actually is in audio post terms. 5.1 was not invented and does not exist to just create a more even front stereo image with some noise behind. Why was 5.1 invented, when the system it was designed to replace (LCRS) had already been providing exactly this very successfully for nearly 20 years?
Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Where do I state that the rear in 5.1 is problem-free? It seems you're just putting words in my mouth.. which is not nice. In fact, I clearly and explicitly said that the rear channels won't give you perfect imaging! So What?
Exactly, What! I originally stated that while 5.1 solves some stereo issues, in practise it commonly introduces other issues, plus other new stereo issues. You are the one arguing with this, so What!
Gregorio, you keep talking about multichannel sound in theaters for movies. I'm talking about multichannel sound in the home for listening to both 2 channel and native multichannel music. As I said before, my system is first and foremost a music listening system. Movies are secondary... however when I got my system balanced well for music, it wasn't hard at all to tweak it to work just as good for movies too. It's just a little tricky because the EQ and channel volume settings apply equally to both, but the DSPs for music have a further group of settings that have to be balanced against the global settings. It took some back and forth, because I tuned for music first, then had to adjust the global for movies, then back and forth between global and DSP a bunch of times until both were perfect. Kind of hard to explain, but there weren't any adjustments for movies that didn't affect the music too. It took parallel parking to get right.
I keep talking about 5.1 in theatres for movies for 2 reasons: 1. It is what 5.1 sound was invented for, it was never intended to be a home audio format and 2. You are the one who said: "You are supposed to calibrate to Dolby or THX standard, the same way movie theaters do. So you start by calibrating for movies and get that right first."!
You seem to be contradicting this statement now you've been called out, what you're saying now is that you setup your system for music first and then tweak for movies. That's a shame, because actually you were right the first time! You've also already admitted that the way you've set your system up does not in fact work in stereo and that you've had to carefully balance the rest of your 5.1 system to compensate for the "gaping holes" you've created in your stereo soundfield. Now you're saying that EQ and channel volumes apply equally to movie playback and to music playback when the music playback standards call for equally balanced and flat playback and the Dolby standards you said should be adhered specify different balancing between the speakers. It doesn't take "parallel parking to get right", it takes two different settings or a willingness to compromise and not get it right!
Look bigshot, it's your system and it's your right to do with it whatever you want, even if that means it doesn't function correctly. What I'm objecting to, is you telling others (in a sound science forum of all places) how they should setup their system to be like your (deliberately malfunctioning) system and defending your position by arguing with those, who have experienced correct 5.1 setups, that they don't know what they are talking about.
Quote:
But a lot of people don't set their multichannel systems up properly and don't even come close to taking advantage of what it can do.
I absolutely agree with this statement. The problem is, that you yourself are an example of one of those "a lot of people" you are talking about and quite an extreme example at that! As with most extremists, you don't actually see yourself as an extremist, you see yourself as "enlightened" and everyone who disagrees with you as blinkered. What you see as "enlightened" is in fact just incorrect and misinformed and any attempt by me (or anyone else) to point this out just apparently results in you contradicting yourself and becoming defensive, rather than questioning the validity of what you believe. This is familiar territory with many audiophiles and is why I stated I was writing these posts for the benefit of others rather than you bigshot, as you are obviously entrenched. I've done what I intended and now it's up to others who read what has been written here to decide for themselves if they wish to setup their system as you have instructed.
G