SunByrne, you may be right in that instance. Perhaps that could be construed as belittling. But then again, perhaps it was deserved, based on some of the early comments on this thread. Anyway, let's not get off track regarding who said what to whom.
I forgot about your mind tunneling possession ability.
Careful when you talk to Jahn. He can possess your mind!
-Ed
I think that due to the immense mass of Jahn's rig and the amount of energy it is able to absorb he has gained the power to bend space & time to his liking. Therefore the switching of the tags would not have been noticed.
But where are we, really? People heard differences, or at least believed they heard them, and attributed what they heard to what they thought it represented. Correct?
I would also suggest not to bash the idea of placebo. The good thing about placebos is: They work. You could likely do as some here asked for and make the test with three identical cables with different markers and people might still hear differences. People are subjective and open to suggestion in their perception, there is no way around that. Uhoh, I start sounding like a naysayer...
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Originally Posted by PhilS Among other things, your argument assumes that silver cables sound better than RS cables in ALL systems, which I don't think any cable "believer" would contend. You also ignore the fact, as noted by others above, that participants were basically forced into identifying a cable, which skews the results.
Sorry, but I do not ignore any fact of the test, I was following it since the first day, and honestly I could anticipate this results a year ago if you would asked me.....Well now, according to what we have read here, for years and years, a silver cable should sound better in any decent system than any of the RS ones, at least, and I do not agree on that with you, unless the believers are trying to change now what they have supported for years...you may not like the way silver sounds in a given setup, as they will sound bright or whatever you feel and call it, but by coincidence in all of them??? Also a RS will sound simply horrible........that is according to what is said here for years...and we may ask Edwood, but there should be a reason on why he chose the RS and silver one...they simply should sound different and they did, just that the called "golden ears" misplaced them by coincidence in the majority of the cases, that is simply funny to me, sorry...
Originally Posted by Sovkiller Sorry, but I do not ignore any fact of the test, I was following it since the first day, and honestly I could anticipate this results a year ago if you would asked me.....Well now, according to what we have read here, for years and years, a silver cable should sound better in any decent system than any of the RS ones, at least, and I do not agree on that with you, unless the believers are trying to change now what they have supported for years...you may not like the way silver sounds in a given setup, as they will sound bright or whatever you feel and call it, but by coincidence in all of them??? Also a RS will sound simply horrible........that is according to what is said here for years...and we may ask Edwood, but there should be a reason on why he chose the RS and silver one...they simply should sound different and they did, just that the called "golden ears" misplaced them by coincidence in the majority of the cases, that is simply funny to me, sorry...
The result was exactly what I would have predicted also, but probably for different reasons than you. Forcing people to say whether a certain cable is brand x or brand y is a vastly different test than asking them if one cable sounds different than another in their system.
And I have also stated on numerous occasions that a silver cable in my system sounded much worse than a cheapo copper cable I had, so I disagree that every proponent of cables on this forum has said that silver cables always sound better than copper. markl has made the same points in his threads reviewing cables. (Also, note that the test did not ask what cable sounded better, but what cable was what, which further undermines any conclusion about the RS vs. silver issue, since some might pick the cable that sounds worse as the RS, assuming (incorrectly) that cheap cables always sound worse, while others might pick the silver if they knew, for example, that silver did not fare will in their system.)
In any event, you will take from the study, and others like it, what you want. Indeed, there is support for both of the "classic" positions in this test. But for either side to say it conclusively demonstrates anything about whether different cables sound different is without basis. The test was not designed to do that, and the parameters and guidelines of the test do not permit one to make a reasoned, conclusive judgment on that issue.
I can draw my own conclusions, which is no matter the cost of cables although differences may be audiable, those differences would not be enough to be able to tell which is which by any clear majority of listeners to justify the cost difference. IMHO this is my conclusion which is all that matters to my ears and wallet.
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Originally Posted by PhilS In any event, you will take from the study, and others like it, what you want. Indeed, there is support for both of the "classic" positions in this test. But for either side to say it conclusively demonstrates anything about whether different cables sound different is without basis. The test was not designed to do that, and the parameters and guidelines of the test do not permit one to make a reasoned, conclusive judgment on that issue.
IMO they do demostrate that people were not able to perceived any of the differences between them and were all guessing, they sounded different to all of them, in a way that every single participant would like them to, not a general concesus than this cable sounded thin and bright, that one sounded warm and mellow, or neutral, etc...as those results were all mixed up, nobody knew for sure what they were listening at...so please no more that silver is bright, and that the RS cables are horrible here OK?....
Originally Posted by Sovkiller IMO they do demostrate that people were not able to perceived any of the differences between them and were all guessing, they sounded different to all of them, in a way that every single participant would like them to, not a general concesus than this cable sounded thin and bright, that one sounded warm and mellow, or neutral, etc...as those results were all mixed up, nobody knew for sure what they were listening at...so please no more that silver is bright, and that the RS cables are horrible here OK?....
As I said, you will take from the study what you want, regardless of whether you have any basis to do so. Whatever.
I think a reasonable conclusion from this test would be that it would not be a good idea to spend a lot of money on a cable without listening to it first because it will not always sound better. But then I'm sure everyone knew that already
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Nice job on the setup Ed! Here's what I deduct as the most prominent finding in my study of the graph...
I may be wrong, but my personal logic tells me that each of the 14 asked themselves which cable sounds the worst, as their first finding and choice.
We can probably mostly all agree that would be the Radio Shack in theory.
They make their guesses or finding and 11 of the 14 (roughly 78%), pick either of the stranded copper cables as the "Rat Shack" sound. Only 3 pick the actual silver cable as the lesser sound (by labeling it Rat Shack).
My deduction from the graph is that aprox 78% or 11 of 14 found the silver to be the least non desirable, since they didn't choose it as the Radio Shack. To me, the two stranded copper cables are very similar (and very hard to tell apart for anyone) as compared to solid silver, so I will lump them together since that is my opinion and right
I would also like to see a test where two cables are exactly alike and one totally different, then have the peeps choose which is different...
Originally Posted by Xanadu777 Nice job on the setup Ed! Here's what I deduct as the most prominent finding in my study of the graph...
I may be wrong, but my personal logic tells me that each of the 14 asked themselves which cable sounds the worst, as their first finding and choice.
We can probably mostly all agree that would be the Radio Shack in theory.
They make their guesses or finding and 11 of the 14 (roughly 78%), pick either of the stranded copper cables as the "Rat Shack" sound. Only 3 pick the actual silver cable as the lesser sound (by labeling it Rat Shack).
My deduction from the graph is that aprox 78% or 11 of 14 found the silver to be the least non desirable, since they didn't choose it as the Radio Shack. To me, the two stranded copper cables are very similar (and very hard to tell apart for anyone) as compared to solid silver, so I will lump them together since that is my opinion and right
I would also like to see a test where two cables are exactly alike and one totally different, then have the peeps choose which is different...
I think you got confused with what is the triangle and what is the square.
Originally Posted by PhilS In any event, you will take from the study, and others like it, what you want. Indeed, there is support for both of the "classic" positions in this test. But for either side to say it conclusively demonstrates anything about whether different cables sound different is without basis. The test was not designed to do that, and the parameters and guidelines of the test do not permit one to make a reasoned, conclusive judgment on that issue.
There is a quite reasoned conclusion based on the results. See post #29. The real problem is the small number of respondents, but given the amount of time it took to do that number, some of us are not young enough to still be around for a more extensive sampling.
Originally Posted by crazychimp132 One variable is left unaccounted for in this experiment: the subject's perception of what each material is supposed to sound like. Because of this, it is possible that all the subjects heard actual differences, but associated these differences with the wrong material. This experiement just shows the differences percieved between real cables and their stereotypes. This experiment would have been more valid if a second cable of each type were included, labelled to show its material. Then subjects could specifically tell, for example, if cable X sounded like a silver cable, not just the stereotype of silver.
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