[Wodgy]

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Originally Posted by 1Time /img/forum/go_quote.gif And, once one learns to play a video gaming machine, there is no other skill available for playing it. However, the timely selection of video gaming machines is a skill that can be learned to improve one's odds of winning (and losing at a slower rate).

Timely machine selection is a myth. The machines use a pseudorandom generator to determine who wins or loses, not a control system. Part of this myth comes from a common misunderstanding of statistics (if you have a fair coin and it's come up heads 100 times in a row, it's not "due" for tails despite popular thinking, the odds of tails on the 101th toss is still just 50%) and part of the myth comes from some older machines not resetting their pseudorandom generator seed in the morning if the machine's internal clock has never been set. Those days are gone.

Quote:

Not the best advice here. Casinos protect themselves against card counters. I doubt the enjoyment of the blackjack experience is too comparable for a blackballed card counter as it is for vast majority who don't count cards.

It's impossible for casinos to detect small-scale card counting -- the idea that they can is part of the casino mythos, designed to prevent people from thinking about gambling in a rational way. Even if you do get booted for winning too frequently, that's hardly bad for you. Unless you like casinos.

Casinos are really just fancy VLT parlors. No difference apart from the atmosphere and the clientele. I'd encourage people contemplating significant gambling to hang around a VLT parlor a bit, it's the most depressing experience. I stayed at a crummy hotel last year with one of these dens downstairs, and you see people in obviously rough financial shape glued to the machines for hours, losing money, hoping, thinking they're on a roll, thinking there's skill in picking the game, the machine, or the screen row(s), not realizing that their expected aggregate winnings are the same whether they make small bets over several hours or a few large bets and then get out. It's an incredibly depressing environment. Casinos are no different in any meaningful way in terms of odds, they just cater to a slightly higher socioeconomic bracket.

 

[vcoheda]

let's try not to turn this into a debate about the economics of gambling.

i am still interested in anyone else's horror stories, or victories; although i assume those are fewer.

 

[MD1032]

Gambling = complete waste of time and money.

 

[Rise To The Top]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD1032 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Gambling = complete waste of time and money.

Penny slots with a membership at a high end casino aren't worth it? I'd say its a fair trade if you play at the right places.

 

[Hirsch]

If you can count cards, the odds in Blackjack actually favor the player. It's the only casino game where this happens, which is why card-counting is looking on with some disfavor by casino owners, who want your money. Basically, you need to first learn the mechanics of the game, so that you are playing the card combinations correctly. The simplest form of counting involves keeping track of whether or not the deck is rich in tens. If the deck is rich in tens, the odds favor the player, and you should be betting high. If the deck is poor in tens, the odds favor the house, and you should bet low. Of course, if a casino owner sees that you're actually paying attention to the played cards, he'll try and get rid of you. Surest way to spot a counter is to watch the variation in bets. At small stakes, nobody is watching. At high stakes, there have been some pretty elaborate schemes, where one person counts, but does not vary his bets, but instead signals a team to come in and bet high when a deck is favorable to the players. Casinos use multiple decks and frequent reshuffles to minimize the effects of counting.

 

[1Time]

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Originally Posted by Darkestred /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've made back 2000 these past 2 weeks.. so hopefully mind over body.

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Originally Posted by 1Time /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a short sighted view common with problem gamblers. There's nothing within a gambler's power to legally overcome the house advantage, and in the long run the house will have its way. The best bet at any point is to stop, accept all losses, and move on to better things to do with one's valuable time and money.

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Originally Posted by Darkestred /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's much different with interatice betting. I win 70% of my games. But, i slip occasionally due to what happened to me earlier. If i didnt think about that and just thought about winning 1-2k a week, id be fine. I would never have won 1000 let alone 26000 if i did non-interactive betting. I will never stop. It's too much fun! Im also ok with the money i lost.

The main difference with interactive gambling is the level of skill involved; however the house still wins big time and a vast majority of participants pay the price. This fundamental principle is no different than the lottery system: very few win, many lose, and the house wins big time. It's the skill factor that seduces the "competitors" into interactive gambling events; it helps the illusion of having more control over the outcome than what actually exists.

Winning 70% of all games played would be a sure path to fortune, if sustained for any significant length of time. However, it is all to unlikely this will happen for any gambler. Another attribute common among problem gamblers is to exaggerate the positive and minimize the negative aspects of gambling.

 

[1Time]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Timely machine selection is a myth. The machines use a pseudorandom generator to determine who wins or loses, not a control system. Part of this myth comes from a common misunderstanding of statistics (if you have a fair coin and it's come up heads 100 times in a row, it's not "due" for tails despite popular thinking, the odds of tails on the 101th toss is still just 50%) and part of the myth comes from some older machines not resetting their pseudorandom generator seed in the morning if the machine's internal clock has never been set. Those days are gone.

None of the above applies to what I meant by timely machine selection. The higher the grand prize is on a bank of progressive machines, the more likely it is the payoff will exceed the amount lost. This is why teams of gamblers used to take over every such available machine once the grand prize was deemed high enough to justify doing so. And, this is why casinos no longer allow teams of gamblers to do this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's impossible for casinos to detect small-scale card counting -- the idea that they can is part of the casino mythos, designed to prevent people from thinking about gambling in a rational way. Even if you do get booted for winning too frequently, that's hardly bad for you. Unless you like casinos.

Casinos detect small scale card counting every day and deal with it however they see fit. And yes they will boot you if necessary or eventually blackball you. Surely that's not the enjoyable blackjack experience the masses are looking for.

 

[1Time]

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Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif did you or do you gamble? where do you get all this information from.

Why do you ask... does what I have posted seem all that incredible?

 

[1Time]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rise To The Top /img/forum/go_quote.gif Penny slots with a membership at a high end casino aren't worth it? I'd say its a fair trade if you play at the right places.

First off, "high end" casinos don't normally have "penny slots". Secondly, casinos use penny slots as a bait to get beginner gamblers interested. And the availability of penny slots is restricted such that they usually are already taken by other gamblers. It's like a sale item at a store with advertised items marked down to below cost but limited to the supply on hand. You go to the store but they're already out of stock, so you end up buying something else that costs more. For casinos this would be the newbie gamblers playing the higher denomination machines.

 

[Rise To The Top]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Time /img/forum/go_quote.gif First off, "high end" casinos don't normally have "penny slots". Secondly, casinos use penny slots as a bait to get beginner gamblers interested. And the availability of penny slots is restricted such that they usually are already taken by other gamblers. It's like a sale item at a store with advertised items marked down to below cost but limited to the supply on hand. You go to the store but they're already out of stock, so you end up buying something else that costs more. For casinos this would be the newbie gamblers playing the higher denomination machines.

Venetian has MANY penny slots, and my dad is no noob. He has been in the casino bussness for over 20 years, and knows what hes doing. If you know how to play a casino, you would know that the penny slots are the BEST for getting comp stuff.

Upscale casinos with penny slots that I have found:
RedRock
Barona
Venetian
Ti

There are probably dozens more, but I havent been on the strip in ages so I cant truthfully tell you the others.

 

[1Time]

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Originally Posted by Rise To The Top /img/forum/go_quote.gif Venetian has MANY penny slots, and my dad is no noob. He has been in the casino bussness for over 20 years, and knows what hes doing. If you know how to play a casino, you would know that the penny slots are the BEST for getting comp stuff. Upscale casinos with penny slots that I have found: RedRock Barona Venetian Ti There are probably dozens more, but I havent been on the strip in ages so I cant truthfully tell you the others.

Getting a comp for playing penny slots, that's a new one on me. Although I don't doubt your experience, I don't recall seeing penny slots in any of the upscale casinos I've been to, but then I don't play them either. Obviously your dad is far from the norm for Vegas. You take a bus load of tourists, tell them all about penny slots and getting comped, dump them off at a high end casino, and then pick them back up in a week. I guarantee you - less than 10% of them will show a profit, comped or not.

 

[Rise To The Top]

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Originally Posted by 1Time /img/forum/go_quote.gif Getting a comp for playing penny slots, that's a new one on me. Although I don't doubt your experience, I don't recall seeing penny slots in any of the upscale casinos I've been to, but then I don't play them either. Obviously your dad is far from the norm for Vegas. You take a bus load of tourists, tell them all about penny slots and getting comped, dump them off at a high end casino, and then pick them back up in a week. I guarantee you - less than 10% of them will show a profit, comped or not.

Locals are alot different from tourists. Talk to any local and 70% of them will tell you how use the casinos for benifit.

 

[1Time]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you can count cards, the odds in Blackjack actually favor the player. It's the only casino game where this happens, which is why card-counting is looking on with some disfavor by casino owners, who want your money.

Counting cards is no guarantee of swinging the odds in the gambler's favor, but it is possible. Rarely too there are promotionals where usually a small bank of video gaming machines are advertised to pay out greater than a 100% return.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Basically, you need to first learn the mechanics of the game, so that you are playing the card combinations correctly. The simplest form of counting involves keeping track of whether or not the deck is rich in tens. If the deck is rich in tens, the odds favor the player, and you should be betting high. If the deck is poor in tens, the odds favor the house, and you should bet low.

The simple system described above will reduce the house advantage, however a more sophisticated system is required to swing the odds in a gambler's favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course, if a casino owner sees that you're actually paying attention to the played cards, he'll try and get rid of you. Surest way to spot a counter is to watch the variation in bets. At small stakes, nobody is watching. At high stakes, there have been some pretty elaborate schemes, where one person counts, but does not vary his bets, but instead signals a team to come in and bet high when a deck is favorable to the players. Casinos use multiple decks and frequent reshuffles to minimize the effects of counting.

Usually a casino won't act unless a card counter shows a winning trend that nets a few hundred. Casinos with single decks don't allow others to begin betting until the next shuffle. I couldn't say for sure how the casinos handle the multi-deck tables though. But for sure varying the bet is a dead give away for a card counter.

 

[1Time]

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Originally Posted by Rise To The Top /img/forum/go_quote.gif Locals are alot different from tourists. Talk to any local and 70% of them will tell you how use the casinos for benifit.

Right, (being a local myself I am well aware of this), however I thought it best to warn the potential tourists who may read this thread rather than allow your post about your dad's experience to entice them. Sorry if my posts end up negatively affecting your dad's gaming stocks.

 

[jayehs]

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Originally Posted by 1Time /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's all anyone really needs to know about gambling. The house wins big time. BTW, show me a blackjack player who can play well enough to allow the house only a 0.5% edge, and I will show you a loser.

In Blackjack, even if you are a great player the house still has 2% edge.