[JWFokker]

I was going to say, mine don't look that good without the jacket.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daroid The difference - I'll say bollocks.

Ditto, I'd also add a "total" waste of a few hundred quid. spend your money on CD's Nick and enjoy the music.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWFokker I was going to say, mine don't look that good without the jacket.

You have to polish them with brass / silver cleaner

 

[pburke]

you'll rarely get a clear answer if upgrade parts are worth the cost. Lots of "I doubt you will hear the difference" posts in this thread, too.

I've built a number of DACs over the last few years, always very similar designs, but I have increasingly moved twoards "boutique" parts, and mostly with quite convincing results.

I've had those Nichicon Fine gold caps in there, thinking "those will be just fine" but when I did replace them with a batch of Blackgate N's, well, I now have a lot of Nichicon caps in the parts bin I don't know what to do with...

Resistors are a similar thing, but you can test the impact with much cheaper alternatives. Basically, if I can't hear the difference between a $0.05 resistor and a Holco, then I save myself the cost of the really expensive types. However, if a Holco makes a difference, I will earmark that part for a possible future upgrade to S102 or whatever works in the circuit.

It all comes down to listening and comparing. For the least 6 months I had the luxury of having at least two identical DACs to A/B compare different parts and circuit modifications with, using the same source and the same playback system in realtime. It really takes the ability to go a/b (either in the live component with a toggle switch, or with identical components differeing only in the parts you want to modify), to be able to tell if the alternate part is worth the expense. Sometimes just a single part won't do anything and you need to swap out a whole chain of components to get the true benefit of the upgrade.

Generally, the better your setup and components get, the more you'll hear the impact of individual parts being modified.

And like pointed out before, not all components are critical enough to deserve the fancy upgrade, plus not always will the upgrade parts fit on PCBs designed for low grade parts.

If you're not sure what is most critical, google some modder sites and take a look at what parts they replace. There's plenty of info on the web that if you study it well will give you a good idea about the circuit areas that are usually targeted by such upgrades.

Ultimately, you'll have to look at what it costs to upgrade a component over just building something from scratch with the proper parts. If the unit to be upgraded is valuable on the used market, it rarely makes sense to mod them. I have some nice amps that I would like to mod, but I know it would be a total waste if I ever wanted to sell the amps. It actually may make it very difficult to sell them at all! So instead of slapping Auricaps and Vishays into my amps, I'll be selling them and use these funds to build new amps from scratch.

Peter

 

[PinkFloyd]

Hi peter,

I had a MKl WNA fitted out with Welwyn RC55Y and another MKl fitted out with bog standard 1% 50ppm metal films and I couldn't hear one bit of difference between the two amps to be perfectly honest. Sure, different types of resistors may sound better in certain applications but in the WNA head-amp they didn't appear to make any improvement.... or at least nothing that was obvious to my ears. Now caps, they are a different kettle of fish entirely....

 

[Emon]

I think capacitors can make a fairly large difference. It's common knowledge around here that caps mess with analog signals (either in a good way or a bad way) and there's tons of measured data to support that. But I think there's a fine line between upgrading to nice caps and just being ridiculous. I think Cerafines or Silmic IIs vs Blackgates is just...eh, doesn't seem like there would be that much of a difference, if any. I haven't heard either, but still...I mean just the price would be more than enough of a deciding factor for me.

 

[pburke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd Hi peter, I had a MKl WNA fitted out with Welwyn RC55Y and another MKl fitted out with bog standard 1% 50ppm metal films and I couldn't hear one bit of difference between the two amps to be perfectly honest. Sure, different types of resistors may sound better in certain applications but in the WNA head-amp they didn't appear to make any improvement.... or at least nothing that was obvious to my ears. Now caps, they are a different kettle of fish entirely....

I found resistors to make the biggest audible difference in attenuators and to some extent around the tubes in my preamp. In my DAC there are two resistors per channel to set the vref, and matching them right down to 0.5% made a big difference, while the type of resistor was not relevant. I also like to use at least a Holco in critical voltage regulators such as the one for my DAC clock. In power supplies (tube gear) good wirewould resistors are usually a quite audible improvement, but diodes and caps are more important there.

Peter

 

[pburke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon But I think there's a fine line between upgrading to nice caps and just being ridiculous. I think Cerafines or Silmic IIs vs Blackgates is just...eh, doesn't seem like there would be that much of a difference, if any. I haven't heard either, but still...I mean just the price would be more than enough of a deciding factor for me.

If you compare BG caps against lesser electrolytics, yes, they seem rather expensive, but when you compare them to superior film caps, they are quite a bargain and in some cases the only way to physically get the needed capacitance into the enclosure. I'm not very impressed with BG's as a coupling cap for example, which means $$$ in Auricaps and even more in V-caps to drive some headphones if that's what you listen to. It's always a compromise between several factors, and budget can be the biggest factor. If you consider $10 a lot for a 100uF cap, then look at what that will cost in Auricaps (I think about $250 will get you there and I'm sure they'll outperform the BGs - but that's beyond my pain threshold as well). The good news is that I don't listen to my headphones very much, so a pair of 220uF BG N's is just fine with me for my headphone output.

Peter

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pburke I found resistors to make the biggest audible difference in attenuators and to some extent around the tubes in my preamp. In my DAC there are two resistors per channel to set the vref, and matching them right down to 0.5% made a big difference, while the type of resistor was not relevant. I also like to use at least a Holco in critical voltage regulators such as the one for my DAC clock. In power supplies (tube gear) good wirewould resistors are usually a quite audible improvement, but diodes and caps are more important there. Peter

Hi Peter,

Oh hell yes, "matching" resistors is absolutely necessary and I always make sure I match them up identically on each channel (ie 100R on the right and 100R on the left) What Biovizier is suggesting is a totally different thing... He's saying (or believes) that a 5ppm temp coefficient resistor will sound "better" than a 50ppm temp coefficient resistor... in a head amp I think lower ppm resistors won't make one iota of difference to the sound.

So, he doesn't want to pay for Vishay resistors because of the 0.1% tolerance he wants them because they have a very low temp coefficient which he thinks will make the amp sound better.

Sorry You misunderstood me, I always hand match resitors to ensure they are spot on on each channel but I sure wouldn't pay silly money for 15ppm Welwyn RC55Y "just" for the low ppm temp coefficiency, specially not in a head amp.

Mike.

 

[12796]

yes and the stepped attenuator has a total of something like 80 resistors only 4 of which are in the signal pathat any one time - one for each of left, right, hot and cold. So £500 to change one reistor in each of the four paths.

 

[pburke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by biovizier yes and the stepped attenuator has a total of something like 80 resistors only 4 of which are in the signal pathat any one time - one for each of left, right, hot and cold. So £500 to change one reistor in each of the four paths.

you need to look at alternate designs of stepped attenuators. My S5 stepped attenuators have only 2 resistors in the signal path, and they are always the same. That's where I spent $25 on a pair of "naked S102s" made by Texascomponents.com while the rest are all Holcos and even radioshack for the volumes I barely ever use. The S102s versus Holcos in the shunt position made a huge difference. Totally new preamp.

To learn more about S5 check this page:

http://www.siteswithstyle.com/VoltSe...ure_Shunt.html

this doesn't work in all applications, but in my DAC/headphone amp, I built one that has zero resistors in the signal path. Obviously, the $0.05 digikey metal films were good enough for those attenuators.

Peter

 

[12796]

thanks all! that attenuator looks interesting.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by biovizier yes and the stepped attenuator has a total of something like 80 resistors only 4 of which are in the signal pathat any one time - one for each of left, right, hot and cold. So £500 to change one reistor in each of the four paths.

It's your money Nick... I'd rather spend £500 to see Floyd at Live8 or buy a load of new CD's...... I "personally" think all this "ppm" temp coeff in a resistor makes your amp sound better is a load of ********. In other applications "maybe" but in the WNA headamp? No way.

Pure bollocks.

Mike.

EDIT: Whoops, just realised you are referring to resistors in a stepped attenuator......... I've never tried one so can't comment but I'd imagine your money could be better spent.

 

[Emon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd I "personally" think all this "ppm" temp coeff in a resistor makes your amp sound better is a load of ********. In other applications "maybe" but in the WNA headamp? No way.

That's the kind of thing I've been saying. I always get shot down.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon That's the kind of thing I've been saying. I always get shot down.

Come into my shelter Emon.... I'd like Ricks opinion on this before cowering in my bunker...... I'll say it again, a matched resistor (any price) is all you need in a head-amp....... this low temp coeff is bunkum (in a Head-amp application) things may be different in a stepped attenuator.......... I'll never know (hate the concept of stepped attenuators)

Mike.