[rickles]

If making mass-produced e-stats were as simple as everyone says it is, we would have done it.

I'll be contrarian here (and I'm an Eric fan, love the video, and meeting you in person!) Companies like Hifiman, Audeze, and Dan Clark Audio are making great e-stats. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the Hifiman Shangri-La Sr are absolutely world class e-stats. The HE-1 is a statement class headphone system, and I'll likely buy a set. However, surely Sennheiser can compete in the non-statement level space while still putting out an amazing e-stat headphone.

 

[skeeb23]

Hello Head-Fi!

Not long ago we asked the headphone communities to share their questions about Sennheiser as it pertains to audiophile headphones: our philosophies, tuning, R&D, manufacturing, and more.

We immediately began producing and filming a new long-form content series to answer some of these questions, titled "Beyond the Curve", and it's here! What we think you'll enjoy about "BTC" is the unscripted access to some of the brilliant minds behind both the products and the philosophies that shape them.

We're happy to announce that Episode 1 is live (tuning!), and we're posting it (and subsequent episodes) here in this thread (of course, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel and get notified of future posts if you choose).

*spoiler* Want to see an original Orpheus cameo? Check out EP01 now Enjoy!

​

This was excellent. I love to continue to learn about the intricacies of this hobby and to get it from a company perspective is Nicely done hosting this as well @ericpalonen

 

[Plieb]

I learned way too much about speaker types and ways to do work. I find the HD600 series too smooth for vocals. Maybe the narrow sound makes comparing music as a hobby more difficult. I found the perfect balance of fun and neutrality in the NDH30 for open backs and the M1ST with aftermarket pads for closed back headphones. Great headphones especially when some are unbeaten for decades.

Thats why in my opinion the 660S is so different. Vocals stand out with much more bite and crispness vs the others in the series. My only complaint about ndh30 are that vocals are too smooth in many recordings. The 660S also projects better in that the sound jumps out of the phone with voices having a lot of seperation. For overall tonality the ndh30 is hard to beat.
.

 

[DarginMahkum]

Firstly, thank you for the informative video. I am not really an IEM person and with full sized HPs, Harman curve 90-95% works for me. I like a little crisper highs and slight (about 2dB) added weight in the low mids gives an excellent and realistic sound for me, Then I wanted to (re)enter the IEM world recently and again went for the best Harman IEM in the market: The Monarch MK2 and sadly it didn't fully work for me. What really worked well with HP was many times nasal and shouty for me. Of course, with in ears you completely take out the outer ear and how deep you can insert the IEM in your ear and how well you can seal it plays a big role. For example my ear canals are narrow (or elliptic), so border between good isolation and painful ears is also narrow. I need to fiddle a bit to find that balance.

I found that 4-5 dB lower upper mids work better for my ears with the IEMs. So there is definitely much more variation related to the physical properties of the ear in the IEM world than the full sized world. I am guessing my outer ear and narrow ear canal entrance is attenuating more than usual so my natural sensory filter is internally compensating the loss when all components are involved. When the outer ear and ear canal to a big extent is out of the picture, it is overcompensated.

 

[exhale]

I had no clue that Frodo was working for Sennheiser! God damn, now there are two reasons to love him!

 

[ericpalonen]

I'll be contrarian here (and I'm an Eric fan, love the video, and meeting you in person!) Companies like Hifiman, Audeze, and Dan Clark Audio are making great e-stats. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the Hifiman Shangri-La Sr are absolutely world class e-stats. The HE-1 is a statement class headphone system, and I'll likely buy a set. However, surely Sennheiser can compete in the non-statement level space while still putting out an amazing e-stat headphone.

On paper it's all possible

This was excellent. I love to continue to learn about the intricacies of this hobby and to get it from a company perspective is Nicely done hosting this as well @ericpalonen

Thank you so much! EP01 was just a warmup

Firstly, thank you for the informative video. I am not really an IEM person and with full sized HPs, Harman curve 90-95% works for me. I like a little crisper highs and slight (about 2dB) added weight in the low mids gives an excellent and realistic sound for me, Then I wanted to (re)enter the IEM world recently and again went for the best Harman IEM in the market: The Monarch MK2 and sadly it didn't fully work for me. What really worked well with HP was many times nasal and shouty for me. Of course, with in ears you completely take out the outer ear and how deep you can insert the IEM in your ear and how well you can seal it plays a big role. For example my ear canals are narrow (or elliptic), so border between good isolation and painful ears is also narrow. I need to fiddle a bit to find that balance.

I found that 4-5 dB lower upper mids work better for my ears with the IEMs. So there is definitely much more variation related to the physical properties of the ear in the IEM world than the full sized world. I am guessing my outer ear and narrow ear canal entrance is attenuating more than usual so my natural sensory filter is internally compensating the loss when all components are involved. When the outer ear and ear canal to a big extent is out of the picture, it is overcompensated.

We talk about headphone tech quite a bit in these corners of the internet but not nearly enough about ears themselves (though much more here than other hifi spaces). Glad to see you're aware of your two best microphones

 

[Nomax]

If making mass-produced e-stats were as simple as everyone says it is, we would have done it.

Then Sennheiser should at least manage to become faster under Sonova in the high-price segment for audiophile dynamic headphones
(The competition does not sleep in this price segment ....and they don't conduct internal market studies for many months before
deciding whether to do something or not....So finally wake up should be in the first place)

NOMAX

PS.lol

 

[draytonklammer]

If making mass-produced e-stats were as simple as everyone says it is, we would have done it.

I can't stop laughing...
This must be why every other niche headphones company can do just that, right?
Sennheiser is far from the captain of industry that it used to be. Innovation seems to have died with Axel Grell's departure, and a corporate unwillingness to do more than coast on prior achievements.

I'd guarantee that your BOM, even including a block of unnecessary marble, on the HE-1, is less than ten percent of MSRP.
I'll be kind and somehow believe that labor, R&D make back, and overhead costs are the same as your BOM.
This would mean that we could scale down a few fancy materials, put proper engineering to good work, and likely end up with a true flagship mass electrostatic product for 1/6th the price of the HE-1.

It's understandable that Sennheiser needs a halo product, like a lot of other higher-end manufacturers, but yikes.
Many smaller companies with much less present-day scaling capacity are managing JUST THIS.

Frankly, I am becoming quite sick of corporate greed in the last decade or so.
Niche companies are the only ones making a difference anymore. It's the same reason I refuse to shop at Amazon, and prefer to take my headphones purchasing to Abyss, Dan Clark, Hifiman, or any other OEM.
This is coming as an enjoyer of the HE-1 and someone who also had some of their first very positive experiences on the HD580, HD600, and HD800, respectively.

 

[DarginMahkum]

I can't stop laughing...
This must be why every other niche headphones company can do just that, right?
Sennheiser is far from the captain of industry that it used to be. Innovation seems to have died with Axel Grell's departure, and a corporate unwillingness to do more than coast on prior achievements.

I'd guarantee that your BOM, even including a block of unnecessary marble, on the HE-1, is less than ten percent of MSRP.
I'll be kind and somehow believe that labor, R&D make back, and overhead costs are the same as your BOM.
This would mean that we could scale down a few fancy materials, put proper engineering to good work, and likely end up with a true flagship mass electrostatic product for 1/6th the price of the HE-1.

It's understandable that Sennheiser needs a halo product, like a lot of other higher-end manufacturers, but yikes.
Many smaller companies with much less present-day scaling capacity are managing JUST THIS.

Frankly, I am becoming quite sick of corporate greed in the last decade or so.
Niche companies are the only ones making a difference anymore. It's the same reason I refuse to shop at Amazon, and prefer to take my headphones purchasing to Abyss, Dan Clark, Hifiman, or any other OEM.
This is coming as an enjoyer of the HE-1 and someone who also had some of their first very positive experiences on the HD580, HD600, and HD800, respectively.

Those companies are successful as they have a fast decision process, only focused on HPs and are controlled by people that are passionate about what they do. Companies like Sennheiser are way passed that, moving in Koala speeds compared to the companies like HifiMan or Dan Clark. Frankly HD series were also my first high end HPs but the last thing I listened from Sennheiser, HD820, didn't make even sense for me as a product. The tech and the build they have on it is still behind what a a small company like Dan Clark achieved with Stealth.

Dan from DCA is answering questions himself on HeadFi, helping people with their issues, listening to feedback from people about DCA products. Can you think of the Sennheiser CEO or at least head of HP division doing the same? Who is the Sennheiser CEO by the way?

 

[ericpalonen]

Yeah not taking the bait. We've got a lot of respect for every brand here, big or small. Namaste

 

[Philimon]

On paper it's all possible

If making mass-produced e-stats were as simple as everyone says it is, we would have done it.

Yeah not taking the bait. We've got a lot of respect for every brand here, big or small. Namaste

You cant explain your statements?

 

[tamleo]

Those companies are successful as they have a fast decision process, only focused on HPs and are controlled by people that are passionate about what they do. Companies like Sennheiser are way passed that, moving in Koala speeds compared to the companies like HifiMan or Dan Clark. Frankly HD series were also my first high end HPs but the last thing I listened from Sennheiser, HD820, didn't make even sense for me as a product. The tech and the build they have on it is still behind what a a small company like Dan Clark achieved with Stealth.

Dan from DCA is answering questions himself on HeadFi, helping people with their issues, listening to feedback from people about DCA products. Can you think of the Sennheiser CEO or at least head of HP division doing the same? Who is the Sennheiser CEO by the way?

Hifiman with its ringing and flawed drivers ? Why move so fast for only the sake of loads of new fotm unfinished products every months or years? I cannot stand the ringing compressed wall-of-sound from most Hifiman headphones I have heard. Audeze is fine but its LCD is too heavy and too much uncompleted variations and I fed up with it. New technology doesn’t always warrant a better sound all rounder. For example balanced armature bs recent years.

 

[draytonklammer]

Hifiman with its ringing and flawed drivers ? Why move so fast for only the sake of loads of new fotm unfinished products every months or years? I cannot stand the ringing compressed wall-of-sound from most Hifiman headphones I have heard. Audeze is fine but its LCD is too heavy and too much uncompleted variations and I fed up with it. New technology doesn’t always warrant a better sound all rounder. For example balanced armature bs recent years.

Do you mind providing a source for the driver issues?
I'm not necessarily doubting it, but I'm making the point that there are a lot of flawed transducer designs that folks still enjoy. Sometimes the flaws are what makes them enjoyable, depending on the person listening.
I'd wager that Sennheiser has issues of their own regarding resonance peaks and other distortion/tonality issues, yet I still tend to enjoy most of their transducers, as I do with Hifiman as well.

I'm reading a lot of this as an opinion piece, and frankly everything is opinionated at the high end of audio.
Hifiman may not be for you, but I'm sure their sales figures paint the picture that there are a lot of folks out there enjoying them.

Lots of other companies to use as an example, too.

 

[AussieMick]

On the idea of speed of product development, it’s a conceit of the hobby that we like having new stuff to think about. That’s no bad thing, and some companies provide that for us brilliantly! However, new things often offer incremental improvements, and sometimes not improvements but just differences (also no bad thing, as the community seems to enjoy the choice).
In this context, companies like Sennheiser and Chord Electronics and Weiss seem to move slowly, but their products are very often good enough to have very, very long self lives. I very much enjoy reading about and hearing when I can the latest gear people are discussing. The hobbyist in me is never satisfied in that regard, but I’m typing this while listening to HD600’s out of a Chord TT2. My other options are Focal Utopias. The TT2 is the youngest of these at what, 5 years old? Launched at Munich 2018? Is that right? The Utopia is 2016 and the HD600 started life in 1997. 26 years old and it’s still a reference headphone for a lot of people. Will the Monarch still be talked about in 2046? How many DAC companies are confident enough to maintain their lineup after six years?

So for me Sennheiser’s relatively slow new product schedule is fine because when something is released it mostly contributes something class and long lasting. (Yes, there were some misses, but lots of excellent companies have some misses.)

 

[lazarian]

Amazing video, always love getting a behind the scenes, it's super rare especially with companies the size of Sennheiser!
Found the comment of shoutiness of the IE Harman curve very interesting, Crinacle and the hp.com folk have been suggesting that for some time. This suggests that Sennheisers own statistical testing with its internal listening tests came to that same conclusion.