[Nadim]

Greetings, Citizens of the Cans!

After recently coming to the realization that I've spent a fair amount on my home speaker system, but actually do most of my music listening through second-rate Aiwa headphones at work, I decided I should really rectify the situation. I read a lot of the reviews here and elsewhere, and lurked for a while, while trying to determine what to buy. I would like closed phones to cut down on the background noise at work (and so as not to annoy others), and have read lots of good things about the Beyerdynamic cans.

Here's the rub, however. I wanted to give the 250s and 831s a listen, so I could decide which sound I preferred (not to mention fit, comfort, etc.), but I can't find a single hi-fi store around that carries anything other than Senns or Grados. Some of the conditions at supposedly high-end showrooms are truly atrocious (one store had all the phones running into a central, hidden switch, and from there into a crappy source with 3 CDs that couldn't be changed by the customer, at another store the salesperson didn't believe me when I explained that there was such a thing as a dedicated headphone amplifier). I'm in the middle of Silicon Valley, too, not exactly out in the boonies.

So, I guess what I'm looking for is other people's recommendations on good places to go to do some listening before I buy. Apparently I missed the headphone tour, so I guess that's out. Am I doomed to just buy several pairs online and return most of them?

These concerns go doubly for headphone amps. My instincts as a skeptic and a EE force me to think twice (and audition thrice) before plunking down a large amount of cash on a headphone amp. As a skeptic, because (as a lot of posts lead me to believe that people are doing) spending a hypothetical $1000 budget on a $50 source, a $700 amp, and $250 transducers seems to go against all rules of common sense from the speaker world. As a EE, because I have a hard time with the concept of that you can "drastically" improve the sound of a set of headphones by adding a connector, a cable, an attenuator, a low-gain booster, and another connector and cable to the signal path to an input signal that was already capable of driving the cans as loud as I want to go.

Before you shoot me, please note that I'm not saying I don't believe that they make a big difference, just that my inclination leads me to be skeptical in the absence of directly listening for myself. However I can't find any stores in the area that carry so much as a single headphone amp, so I'm at a loss as to how to go about that most fundamental aspect of shopping for audio.

Anyone know of good places to be able to demo some of this stuff, so I can stop doing so much research and start enjoying the music?

-Nadim

 

[akar]

Bozeman, MT

 

[Steve999]

I think the best thing to do is find the headphones you're most interested in and take them home and try them. I think I've read that headroom has a good return policy and have the headhpones you mentioned. I find that even A/B-ing in a good environment isn't a very good guide. For example, when I A/B my Sennheiser 497s, Sony V6s, and Grado SR 60s, the SR 60s come in last, yet somehow it's the Grados that I end up listening to the most. I just like them best, and I'm not sure why, and I don't see how could have figured that out other than having them at home and seeing if I ended up using them most.

 

[JMT]

Nadim, welcome to Head-Fi.

Auditioning headphones is a challenging enough. It is difficult to find an audio retailer that carries other than your typical Sony MDR-POS. As the two posts before mine said, HeadRoom, located in Bozeman, MT stocks a crapload of excellent headphones. They also stock some that even they would admit are not so good. Check them out here.

Auditioning headphone amps is even more difficult, almost impossible. I believe the Analog Room in San Jose carries the Sugden Headmaster, but I do not know if it is set up to where you could audition it. Your best bet with an amp is to do a lot of research here and at HeadWize.

Good luck, and sorry about your wallet.

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nadim Greetings, Citizens of the Cans! ...but actually do most of my music listening through second-rate Aiwa headphones at work, I decided I should really rectify the situation.

Greetings back to you. But I have to say my alltime favorite headphone festival of the year takes place at Cannes. Get it? No?!!

Ok. Your question has an easy answer, but you are not 'doomed' by it. Just research a little bit and then buy from whoever has the best price (including buying used gear if possible) without ever having heard the headphones in question. That happens a lot. You'd be surprised to know thats how several people bought or came close to buying the Sony R10 headphone, which is going to cost something like $2,000 used (ok, for you, $1700)
You heard of 'sight unseen'? Ok well this is 'ear unheard'.

So dont worry yourself about having to hear before you buy. It would be nice but its simply not possible all the time. The balancing factor is that you are looking for closed headphones. This narrows the choices down enough that maybe you actually can find the top choice(s) in Sunnyvale (I spent a year in Cupertino, hi!)
Do a forum search on closed headphones.

I agree with you about the amp thing, but its not possible to avoid the need for good/expensive amplification with certain headphones. The Senns with their high impeadance, for example, or the K1000's because they need a power amp period. ..the list goes on. But I suggest spending the most you can afford on the headphones themselves and deal with the amp second. You're using them at work anyway, where exqui$ite amplification might just be overkill. And lastly, I dont think an air traffic controller should be listening to music while he works. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[TravelLite]

Nadim:

Yes, it's frustrating. Hopefully someone with specific knowledge about resellers in the SF Bay Area will chime-in.

Regarding the headphones though, consider giving Beyerdynamic North America a call. Let them know you want to audition their headphones for HI-FI use and see what they suggest.

Since Beyerdynamic makes microphones and other related live performance gear, I can imagine that some local outlets might focus on sales and rentals of these products to the exclusion of the complete headphone range.

OTOH, don't laugh at akar's suggestion, snow season doesn't really start until the first of November in Bozeman, MT.

TravelLite

 

[Hirsch]

There are NO dealers in the DC area that carry a full line of audiophile grade headphones, much less ones you can audition. Headroom has the best selection of headphones you can audition (use the sponsor link on the home page), and the ones they cannot carry are due to overly restrictive conditions by the manufacturer on internet retail, not their own fault or lack of desire.

One of the reasons I started hosting Head-Fi meets in my area was to give people a chance to hear a variety of amps and headphones in one place that simply cannot be found in a retail environment. I have a bigger collection of headphone equipment than any retailer in my area that I know about. Added to the equipment that other Head-Fi'ers bring, the amount of equipment available to listen to becomes staggering (last time we all went into audio overload). That's also one of the reasons behind Headroom's recent World of Headphones Tour. It's the only way to hear a variety of high quality headphone equipment...and hearing it is the only way to learn what you like and don't like, and to start making informed decisions (and posts).

Since people seem to have been enjoying the meets, I'm going to keep doing them as much as I can. If people in other areas keep doing them also, there may not be commercial places where people can go to hear headphones, but at least there will be some ways to go listen to headphones when a meet occurs.

 

[kelly]

Nadim
Welcome to Head-Fi.

It's hard to audition things that are somewhat of a niche market and high end headphones are a niche of a niche. However, I notice that you live in Sunnyvale, near where many other Head-Fi'ers live and sometimes have meets like the ones Hirsch just described. I don't know that the next Cali meet would necessarily produce the DT831 and DT250-80, but it's worth checking into regardless.

To answer your dilemma about spending ratios. Whatever conventional wisom you may apply regarding the source component probably still holds true. I'm on the "source is very important" team while others here are very much at the other extreme. The only argument one could make for a difference is that perhaps imaging and depth of soundstage is less important on headphones (though, I think what is good for this in speakers is often good for detail and focus in headphones).

Regarding the rest of it -- it is unfair to compare the cost of speakers to the cost of headphones. Speakers are very large, complex and expensive just to assemble. They usually have multiple drivers that have to be arranged in such a way as to minimize phase distortion while retaining only the desired amound of box resonance, etc. Simply put, a headphone is cheaper to make. Therefore, you should consider your costs differently when comparing to amplifiers. HeadRoom pairs a $450 retail headphone with their top of the line $3400 headphone amplifier and they, and a few people here, consider it to be the best headphone system in the world.

Reasonable is probably something in the middle. It's not unusual to pair $400 amplifiers with $200 headphones, for instance, and I think this is a real sweet spot with performance for stuff currently on the market. Still, no amount of debate about ratios and economic theory can substiute for auditioning for yourself and that's where those meets come in. After you plug your headphone into 10 or 12 amps, you can get a better idea of what kind of improvements to expect and whethere they're worth it to you.

Last year at this time, I had heard only a handful of modern headphones. Now I can say with the exception of the Ultrasones and MB Quart (both European and hard to come by), I've heard every headphone worthy of consideration -- mostly due to the local meets. That I got to hang out with some really cool people was a nice bonus, too.

 

[Nadim]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies, you guys are a very helpful bunch, and I'm very appreciative. Rather than posting 5-6 replies in a row, let me address selected comments all at once...

Quote:

From JMT: Auditioning headphone amps is even more difficult, almost impossible. I believe the Analog Room in San Jose carries the Sugden Headmaster, but I do not know if it is set up to where you could audition it. Your best bet with an amp is to do a lot of research here and at HeadWize.

Oh cool, I'll have to give them a call and see what amps they have available for me to plug into for a quick listen. I have been reading a bunch about the different amps out there, but it's so hard to get an accurate assessment of the true levels of difference. Sometimes (after reading Stereophile, for instance), I get the distinct feeling that there is a strong negative correlation between the number of flowery adjectives in a review, and the magnitude of the actual sonic advantages of a product... I think I'm contemplating starting with one of the cheaper home-grown amps. That way, I'm not out so much if I don't find the improvement breathtaking, plus I can write it off as a fun DIY project. I see you're in that business...any recommendations on places to get a pre-fabbed circuit board so I can keep the wiring a little cleaner and case a little smaller?


Quote:

From M Rael: You'd be surprised to know thats how several people bought or came close to buying the Sony R10 headphone, which is going to cost something like $2,000 used (ok, for you, $1700) You heard of 'sight unseen'? Ok well this is 'ear unheard'.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised that some people do that at all, after all it takes all kinds in this world. And, if they didn't, who would write the reviews?

But, it's just not for me...well, maybe if I wasn't in the middle of buying a house right now...

Quote:

From TravelLite: OTOH, don't laugh at akar's suggestion, snow season doesn't really start until the first of November in Bozeman, MT.

Yikes... I was contemplating, a short while ago, driving to Odgen, Utah, for a good deal on some DefTech BP3000TLs, but I suspect that going all the way to Montana in order to save $30 in return shipping on headphones I don't end up keeping might be considered a tad bit of false economy.

Quote:

From Hirsch: Since people seem to have been enjoying the meets, I'm going to keep doing them as much as I can. If people in other areas keep doing them also, there may not be commercial places where people can go to hear headphones, but at least there will be some ways to go listen to headphones when a meet occurs.

Hmmmm...now that sounds like a good time, actually. I'll be back in PA in a couple months when they're done building my house (and I have friends in Gaithersburg and Potomac that I need to visit some time, for that matter). Do you guys discuss these meets on head-hi or headwize, or is it more of a closed affair?

And in regards to Kelly's comments about reasonable headphone system layouts...

I certainly agree with you on a number of
points. Yes, headphones don't have to deal with crossovers, driver matching, or room acoustics. But on the other hand, headphone amps don't exactly have it as hard (in some cases basically just amplifying a .7 V signal into a 1 V signal, or so...) either. While I have absolutely no reason to doubt people's reviews when they say they make a large difference, I have also heard people (on other hi-fi forums) swearing that they could hear a "significant" difference by using TOSLINK optical cables that had gold-plated contacts instead of regular ones.... Hence, I've learned to use my ears first and wallet second...

So, I guess I should check out the meetings forum.....I've got a case of Guinness in the fridge if someone orders the pizza!

Thanks again for all your replies. Just so you all know, I think I may wait a short while contemplating the beyers (or maybe not....perhaps the urge to spend shall win out over all else), but I'm putting in my order today for a pair of Ety ER-4Ps so I can enjoy the 15 hour flight to China (vacation time!) coming up in a couple weeks. That's one more person you've all managed to corrupt with your ellusive promises of the perfect, personal sound, any time, any place.

-Nadim

 

[akar]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Last year at this time, I had heard only a handful of modern headphones. Now I can say with the exception of the Ultrasones and MB Quart (both European and hard to come by), I've heard every headphone worthy of consideration -- mostly due to the local meets.

Kelly, one of my local audio/video stores carries MB Quart headphones.
I think the prices are reasonable.
If you are interested in getting some, I could go see what models they have and if you want some I could send them to you.

 

[JMT]

Quote:

any recommendations on places to get a pre-fabbed circuit board so I can keep the wiring a little cleaner and case a little smaller?

I distribute the PCB for the Cmoy pocket amplifier with the Meier Crossfeed circuit. Tangent distributes the PCB and many of the components necessary for the META42 amplifier.

Tangent's META42 Page

 

[taoster]

Quote:

Originally posted by M Rael Greetings back to you. But I have to say my alltime favorite headphone festival of the year takes place at Cannes. Get it? No?!!

lol

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nadim Hmmmm...now that sounds like a good time, actually. I'll be back in PA in a couple months when they're done building my house (and I have friends in Gaithersburg and Potomac that I need to visit some time, for that matter). Do you guys discuss these meets on head-hi or headwize, or is it more of a closed affair?

The meets are usually discussed in the meetings forum, and are open to all. Some pictures from the last one at my place are here

We did discover that there's such a thing as too much audio

 

[finleyville]

Quote:

And lastly, I dont think an air traffic controller should be listening to music while he works. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I know I'm ashamed when I do it flying the plane at 28,000 feet!

JK

over and out...

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by akar Kelly, one of my local audio/video stores carries MB Quart headphones. I think the prices are reasonable. If you are interested in getting some, I could go see what models they have and if you want some I could send them to you.

akar
Thank you for the offer. I have a few things in the pipe right now and I don't know how soon I'd be able to make room in my budget for additional headphones. I'd be curious about the prices if you go by there again, though. In fact, if they have any on display, post your impressions of whatever models you get to hear--even on shoddy store display equipment, it's better than no information at all which is close to what we have now.