[powerdog]

Isn't hearing ability also part of the equation? I have a mild hearing loss, and a bit of tinnitus (neither is headphone induced), and I doubt I'd hear better sound through $1k+ headphones than I do through my 250-80. Since my problem is fairly common, I think you have to ask yourself honestly if you have ears that justify spending big bucks.

 

[Zanth]

powerdog: some at first may not be "trained" to pick out sounds, or define soundstage width and depth etc. Some can just do it..others will learn to do it. Critical listening is just as important as haveing good equipment and recordings. What use is an Orpheus if one can't appreciate it fully? So take heart, even if you have some ear problems, you can still stretch your capabilities to the point of getting the most out of what you have. Maybe you already do, and in that case, congrats!

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by powerdog Isn't hearing ability also part of the equation? I have a mild hearing loss, and a bit of tinnitus (neither is headphone induced), and I doubt I'd hear better sound through $1k+ headphones than I do through my 250-80. Since my problem is fairly common, I think you have to ask yourself honestly if you have ears that justify spending big bucks.

One audio reviewer asked this of some people with mild hearing impairments years ago. Although this wasn't scientifically done by any standards, he found that people with mild hearing impairment were fully able to appreciate high end sound.

Think of it this way. Suppose your hearing is 90% of normal. Headphone A has absolute sound quality of 500 units of wonderfulness, while headphone B has only 350 wonderfulness units. Even with a hearing impairment, headphone A will still give you 450 wonderfulness units of sound, while headphone B will only yield 315 units. It's not as simple as this, of course, as hearing loss may impact frequency ranges differentially, but you get the general idea. A hearing impairment does not necessarily mean that you can't appreciate quality sound, although you may hear it differently than someone with normal hearing.

 

[Vertigo-1]

Your ears will certainly play a large role...more importantly, it's more like whether or not you want your ears to care. Some people just don't want to give a rat's ass about audio. Case in point, back when I still owned the Sony MDR-R10s, I could parade them in front of my roomates all I wanted, but they just did not care for a listen. I'm sure they wouldn't care even if they did listen. As a result I didn't even have to worry about my roomates trying to sneak a listen in while I wasn't in the room.

On the other hand, if you do care, and want to turn it into a hobby, you WILL learn real quickly how to do intensive listening. I've already ran into a few young 'uns myself that sound as if they've talked in audiophile hubbub their entire lives. And that's where you will start appreciating better sound regardless of a pricetag (unless it puts you out on the street of course). I think urs said it best in another thread when he said that you will spend based on not only your income, but also on the value you place on music. The more you value music, the more you will want to spend on it. I think those two variables are what affect all of us the most when looking at the monetary side of audio. But in my opinion, good music reproduction is priceless.

With that said, some of my own choices for that bang for the buck award are the Koss KSC-35s, Sony MDR-V6, Grado SR-325, and Etymotic 4P+4S adaptor. My own ears say you can still get much, much better then that, but after that, expect to pay at least 50% more then the previous amount to get to the each 'phone higher up in the headphone chain. So in terms of performance I don't think the Etymotics are where the diminishing returns kick in, but the Etymotic's price point is definitely where things start going up steeply. I honestly don't believe diminishing returns even apply between different headphone companies, rather only within a headphone company's own product lineup, i.e. HD580s to HD600s. And I do honestly think the more expensive headphones are worth their pricetags. Still, keep in mind even up in the upper stratosphere of headphone land, you're still playing the game of "what sounds best to your ears". It's just that, IMHO, you've eliminated quite a number of competitors by then.

 

[Steve999]

Hey dinasouract --

I'm with you on the Sennheiser HD 497s, though I haven't treid anything more expensive. Between them and my Sony MDR V6s as closed headphones, I am satisfied that I'm hearing all of the music. They KSC-35s are great, but I feel like I am missing some of the music (low bass, mid treble) with them. With the 497s and the V6s, my feeling is, I just don't feel the desire for anything better. But then again, in a week, who knows.... I love my Grado SR60s too, but I do feel like I'm missing a little bass with them... I need a modern recording for the SR60s, since the bass is full and strong on the most recent recordings. And I guess that's where my point of diminishing returns kicks in.... the point where I both love the sound and don't feel like I'm missing any of the music...


Quote:

Originally posted by dinosauract zanth - I haven't heard everything, but to me the 497 is the best sound I've found until I get to the 580's price point. I'm sure there are better than the 580, but to me the price I would have to pay to get it isn't justified.

 

[andrzejpw]

I agree with the 580s. In my opinion, the represent the best performance for price option. Do the 600s give THAT much better sound for the extra $100? Not to me, they don't. Maybe some day. . .

 

[powerdog]

Yes, I agree that I could probably train myself to discern the differences between good and great headphones. But I can't imagine it as anything but an intellectual exercise. After all, no one on this forum would enjoy headphones that added the kind of hiss/whine that I add to the mix myself! Kinda spoils the pleasure.

 

[MacDEF]

In my opinion, the KSC-35 are the best "bang for the buck" in all of headphones. They sound great directly from a portable, but they also sound much better when driven from a good source and amp (yes, a Max and SACD player makes them sound much better

). They aren't the best headphones on the market, and I have much more expensive stuff, but for $25 they're insanely good.

Retail price of PCDP + KSC-35: $110.

Retail price of the "big rig": about $3,000

Does the big rig offer sound that is 27x as good? Nope.

 

[Matt]

Quote:

Originally posted by powerdog Yes, I agree that I could probably train myself to discern the differences between good and great headphones. But I can't imagine it as anything but an intellectual exercise. After all, no one on this forum would enjoy headphones that added the kind of hiss/whine that I add to the mix myself! Kinda spoils the pleasure.

You must also consider the effect of sonic distortions that, while not perceptible in an immediate, sensory sense, do introduce stress and fatigue into a listening experience, ultimately impacting both your general enjoyment of you listening time as well as the tolerable length of that time.

What I'm trying to say is that positive and negative points of a sound system are not necessarily exclusively analytically "trainable."

I do agree, though, that a lot of the "gains" in audiophilia tend to be of the analytical sort (as opposed to "contact high"-style, dreamy musicality...whatever your conception of that is). Extolling the spec-virtues of model X headphones occasionally ventures into my-dick-is-thirteen-inches-long-but-what-about-the-receiver's-general-pleasure ? territory.

- Sir Mister Matt

 

[Discovery]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matt You must also consider the effect of sonic distortions that, while not perceptible in an immediate, sensory sense, do introduce stress and fatigue into a listening experience, ultimately impacting both your general enjoyment of you listening time as well as the tolerable length of that time.

That is an interesting point. Recently, I have been using a pair of HD-580s from the headphone output on a PC's CD-ROM. While I know this is far from an ideal source, I have not yet decided on an amplifier for these recently purchased phones. The sounds quality is noticeably worse than when using my receiver (also a poor choice for an amplifier, but it will have to do until I can make up my mind on a dedicated headphone amplifier), but is initially tolerable for listening to music while on the computer. However, after a relatively short time listening to music, it is unpleasant to continue listening. The issue is not the volume level as I'm careful not listen too loudly. The comments by Matt seem to confirm what I've begun to suspect. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[sapphiremodena]

Quote:

Originally posted by jlo mein i cant ignore the great value of the koss 35's. I just got them 4 days ago. They are absolutely spectacular for their price. I'm not going to say that the are THE BEST price/value phones, but they are pretty good.

Where did you get them, and for how much after shipping and taxes [and duties?] and everything? How do you like them compared to the ksc-50's?

 

[BDA_ABAT]

Another echo for the "value is relative" folks.

Example: when I first started getting into headphones again (~ a year ago), I didn't want to spend a lot of money. I wanted the best sounding, least expensive, best value headphones that I could find (doesn't everyone???). NOTE: OK, this was after I had already purchased Koss Plughs. Immediately after hearing them, I began my quest.

This quest lead to me buying a modest number of modest headphones. I started off with fairly cheap cans, ended up not liking them, then getting the next step up in quality and price, but still was not happy with the sound, and so on and so on. I kept feeling like there was more out there and better quality to be had. Upgraditis had firmly set in. In the end, I had spent ~ $600 trying out the various headphones that I really didn't like all that much. The headphone that ended my upgraditits was the Etymotic ER4P.

Bottom line for me: I would have been much better served by spending the ~$300 initially on the Etys than going through several months and many more dollars on lower cost headphones that I wasn't satisfied using.

Of course, YMMV.

Bruce

 

[ArChaos]

The "value" of everything in life, headphones included

, is a very personal thing as pointed by now by many of you... For myself there are a couple of things that matter the most :

1) I look at the price of things as related to the pleasure and satisfaction they give me over time. I listen to music MANY hours a day and almost EVERY day. So, if I look at the pleasure I get from music over time and PER TIME UNIT relative to all other "leisure" activities that demand much more money from me compared to the headphones' ONE TIME expense, even the more expensive headphones would come cheap...(just consider proportionaly how much money you spend PER TIME UNIT each time you go out to restaurants, concerts, weekends, holidays and so on...)

2) I am addicted to quality, I'm a "perfectionist" by nature, (which is not necesarily a good thing - believe me, it doesn't make life easier...) so I always look for the best I can afford. On the other hand, I think people should be practical and not throw money over the window just for the sake of " theoretical perfection". I don't think the ratio increase in price could and should be proportional to the ratio increase in quality - actualy it never is - you have to work ten times harder in order to achive the last 1% step to 99.9% perfection (100% doesn't exist in real life...) and so it is with headphones ... On the other hand, a 100% rise from a 20$ to a 40$ headphone - is not the same as 100% rise from a 200$ to 400$ one... the amount *^^^$* is what it counts, not the ratio...I would never save on a few dollars even if proportionaly is twice the price...

...Which brings us to the sad fact that life is a bitch and we must compromise - there goes the Orpheus...

- but still there are a lot of open roads to travel... each one according to his budget. As many have pointed out the bigest mistake is to buy cheapies - it always turns out to be a waste - as someone said :"I'm too poor to afford myself buying cheap things". I'm not a rich person but I always save and buy the best I can - the HD-580 costed me over 300$ at the time, the MdQUART some 200$ and when I look back at the hundreds of hours I enjoyed them, THAT'S THE BEST INVESTMENT I'VE EVER MADE.