[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmt1 Yes, I know the arguments about crossover frequency, but if you think a single driver can present everything in your music, you're sadly mistaken. It can't. That's the whole principal behind the multidriver IEMs in the first place. UE 10 is probably the most neutral phone there is--definitely more neutral than the ety's--it's not even close.

Perhaps your definition of "neutral" is different from mine, then. For me, having a flat diffuse field response is as neutral as it is going to get.

Quote:

Multi drivers does NOT inflate the bass. Extending it does not inflate it; it's not bloated. You hear what is supposed to be there; it's not adding anything (I don't know where you're getting this)--the single driver IEM's are missing it in the first place.

It's quite simple. A completely flat bass response will give you exactly as much bass there is in the source recording itself. No more, no less. This is important when working with sound. Anything more will give you more than what actually exists in the recording. For simply listening to music, this is a matter of preference, and has nothing to do with anything versus anything or what is better. But when you're working with sound (I do) and you need an accurate representation of what is actually there, a flat response is crucial. You also seem to be confusing bass extension and bass amount. The ER4s have very good bass extension; all the way down to -3db or so at 20hz. The amount of bass is very flat and neutral, however. But that is okay, because they were intended to be this way from the beginning.

Quote:

In fact, there has been much talk on here of the Ety's adding artificially (you guessed it, to the highs. Not to mention that the ety's artificially increase detail by decreasing decay--it's a neat trick, and I like the effect, but it's anything but natural).

Decay is primarily a function of the recording, not of the headphone. Perhaps other headphones are artificially extending the decay? I have never noticed this "decay" problem on my ER4s. I can hear cymbals accurately fade into silence, along with every other instrument.

Daniel Pumphrey put this more succinctly than I ever could:

Quote:

When I listen to a low note from a pipe organ, the proper Musical response from the headphone will be a note reproduced exactly when it appeared at the output of the amp, or to be more exact, the beginning of the headphone cable. No lag time is acceptable. When the note stops, the headphone must stop vibrating and not continue. This is essential for musicality to apply. The other aspect of Musicality I think is important is that the previously mentioned note from the pipe organ must be reproduced with the proper harmonic content and tone without peaks and dips being present. Often when listening to other phones (other than the ER4) I have a different result with the same given note from a pipe organ. There is a slow "note on" as musicians identify it, or a lag in the response time as others identify it. This lag is also continued for the upcoming note-off event. This lag time does not create "Musical" warmth to me, quite the contrary, it actually produces a blurred note.

And if you had actually ever read anything about the ER4s, you would know that they actually boosted the highs to achieve the flat response the Etys have:

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Wilson On the ER-4B we actually boosted the high frequencies a bit to achieve a flat diffuse field response. This response is measured in a zwislocki coupler (db 100) real ear simulator. It is a few tenths of a dB different than the ISO standard real ear simulator.

Quote:

You really need to hear a good multi driver IEM. Until then, all you're doing is making snap judgements--they are that much better. You will pick things you never knew were there in a good recording with a set of good IEM's. When you go to the ety's for the first time, it's a common occurence--people will notice a detail they never heard before. Going from the ety's to a better IEM takes this a step further. Again, it's not that the better IEM's are adding anything; they're just presenting what the ety's cannot physically do.

Perhaps, perhaps. But I have other reasons for having the ER4s than simply listening to music. As I said, a flat frequency response is important for the work that I do. When I am working on a particular waveform, and play it back, it needs to be as true a representation as possible of what is actually there, of how it actually sounded when I heard it live. The Etys do this for me.

Quote:

The majority of people will/have found the multi driver IEMs to be superior to the single driver; that's really the bottom line. If someone was looking for info on these--which a large number of people here do--that's going to be the overwhelming opinion. Now if you want to get into value, that's a whole new arguement; although the UE10's are worth it to me personally, are they six hundred dollars better than the ety's? Probably not. It doesn't change the fact that they are better--or that you haven't heard them, but maintain they aren't.

I maintain that the large majority of people will indeed find them to be "better" for one reason or another, but that they are not absolutely better, yes. I would still maintain that even if I had heard them and liked them.

Quote:

There are very few absolutes in life; you're losing the forest by concentrating on a few trees...It's really not a practical argument anymore--it has no worth, because it's beginning to get down to semantics.

Is that your way of saying you can't answer my challenge?

Quote:

The UE10's are more accurate than the ety's--slightly more so in the highs, significantly more so in the bass.

This is simply wrong. A nonflat bass response is, by definition, inaccurate. This has nothing do with with the UE-10 versus anything, it is simply a fact. Perhaps it may sound more accurate (pleasing?) but you are still getting more bass from the headphone than the source recording itself has. For listening to music, this is not a bad thing, and I engage in it often. I do love my Grados, after all. But for actually working with sound and music, it isn't a good thing.

As for the highs, I've already gone over that.

Quote:

They are less harsh and fatiguing (Once you've listened to a multi driver IEM for a period of time and go back to the ety's,you'll know exactly what I'm talking about).

I've only used one multi-driver IEM, and it was nowhere near the UE-10 pro, I'm afraid. I have never found my ER4s to be harsh, or fatiguing. I have no problem listening to them for hours at a time. (Which I regularly do when working.) But then again, I also don't find Grados to be harsh or fatiguing either, and they have far more treble energy than the ER4s.

Quote:

The bass is more forward, less recessed, but not bloated (The UE5C's however, definitely suffer from bloated bass.). The vocals are slightly more forward on the UE10's--not better or worse, just a sound signature difference. So yeah, the UE10's are better for the vast majority of listeners who get into the ety sound signature--like myself.

Exactly. They are better for the vast majority of people.

Quote:

And for the one's who prefer the ety's over the UE10's, I've always wondered if fit was an issue--again, it's like color TV vs. black and white--I really have a hard time believing someone would prefer the ety's over the UE10's or Sensa's.

Maybe they're just insane!

Quote:

I guess my whole problem with what you're saying in this thread is you're making judgements on phones you haven't heard (Kind of taboo around here), and it's compounded by the fact that your sound signature preference is in the minority. Mine is too, I prefer the ety sound signature to the Shure sound signature--and although the ety's have a fanatical following, I don't think it's a majority here. So I don't think I'm on the same page with most people with regard to sound signature, but (no offense), I'm not sure you're even in the same book.

I never intended for this to evolve into a technical discussion of the UE-10 Pro or the Sensas, or ER4s, or whatever. If you go back to the beginning of the argument, you can see that my original objection was a philisophical objection to the assertion that because one (or many) people find a thing to be of a subjectively better quality, the thing automatically becomes better on an objective, absolute scale. That is the core of my argument. Not that the ER4s are superior, or better than the UE-10s (or anything else, for that mater). I still maintain this argument.

And with that, I will have to gracefully (?) excuse myself from this discussion.

 

[wanderman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek The ER4s go all the way out to 16kz in the treble, all the way down to 20hz in the bass. The UE-10s, or the Sensas, or any other armature based IEMs do not go any higher treble-wise. It is a physical limitation of a balanced armature driver which has yet to be overcome. Some manufacturers claim 18khz, but I have my doubts about that. As for lower extension, that is all subjective. I prefer a flat bass response because it represents accurately what exists in the recording, rather than inflating it artificially.

19.5khz with shure e3's. the tones were generated with audactiy.

 

[doobooloo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanderman 19.5khz with shure e3's. the tones were generated with audactiy.

Did you use a computer soundcard? There is a good chance that you're actually not hearing 19.5khz - rather you may be hearing some other fundamentals due to sound card limitations?

I know that on my system when i do a frequency sweep, around 20khz the audible frequency actually is lower than what i hear around 16khz and it's a bit distorted as well.

 

[Ref]

all of you have to remember that people have different preferences based on what they do with headphones. you can't compare somebody who works with classical music to prefer same headphones as a rap listener. or rock.

for me, i use headphones for movies, softer music, etc. I find neutral response to be the best for understanding a foreign language in movies. Especially at low volume it makes a huge difference.

Now, I have never heard UE-10, so my opinion is limited. However, I would like to hear some opinions about understanding foreign languages in movies with different headphones. I'm curious as if higher-end IEMs than ER-4S, make a difference in this area.

For those of you who think ER-4P (notice: if you have ER-4S, try ER-4P) has any artificial highs, you don't have the right seal/fit. ER-4P has dips compared to FLAT ER-4S. You should not get a feeling of artificial highs. You may get it with ER-4S if you are used to headphones with dips in response, or have music that has artificial high - try to compare not music, but voices of people in movies etc(they should be similar to a real person talking to you).

 

[astro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by javahut OK. I've had E5Cs for 2 or more years... just got the E500s a few weeks ago. I'll have to give my vote to the E500s for their superior top end detail, along with their tighter but deeper low end. However, I still love the low end "oomph" of the E5s... they're just fun to listen to, but still, lack some of the superior mid & high end detail of the E500s. The Etys? You gotta be kidding me. This talk of how the Etys are scientifically perfect because they compensate for the how the ear perceives sound is bunk, I don't care what Ety's graphs indicate. I had a pair of ER4s for a couple of days before I got the E5s. There is no way the top end on the Etys is "nuetral". They have the most hyped top end of any audio monitoring system I've ever heard... period. Sure, some things sound "better than reality" monitored like this. But about 90% of the stuff I listened to on the Etys sounded unpleasantly harsh and piercing with no low end to speak of, much less what would be considered "balanced". Too much music I love was unlistenable on the Etys. If you like Etys, it's because you like hyped top end added to your audio.

I used to think that, when I had my ER4P hooked up to my audigy2. The highs were harsh and fatiguing to listing to, with the bass sounding thin and weak.
Then I got my amp and P to S cable. It felt like it added a 3rd dimension to music. The highs are so neutral and smooth sounding, it's amazing. The bass sounds perfectly full and tight with the added S cable. Without it, it actually sounds overpowering and loose.
Sounds like you tried to judge the pair on a weak source.

 

[astro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref all of you have to remember that people have different preferences based on what they do with headphones. you can't compare somebody who works with classical music to prefer same headphones as a rap listener. or rock. for me, i use headphones for movies, softer music, etc. I find neutral response to be the best for understanding a foreign language in movies. Especially at low volume it makes a huge difference. Now, I have never heard UE-10, so my opinion is limited. However, I would like to hear some opinions about understanding foreign languages in movies with different headphones. I'm curious as if higher-end IEMs than ER-4S, make a difference in this area. For those of you who think ER-4P (notice: if you have ER-4S, try ER-4P) has any artificial highs, you don't have the right seal/fit. ER-4P has dips compared to FLAT ER-4S. You should not get a feeling of artificial highs. You may get it with ER-4S if you are used to headphones with dips in response, or have music that has artificial high - try to compare not music, but voices of people in movies etc(they should be similar to a real person talking to you).

Totally agreed. I love watching stand-up DVDs now 100% more. It feels like you're there with front row seats. The audience cheering and clapping clearly sounds like it's coming from behind.

 

[sethsez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref You may get it with ER-4S if you are used to headphones with dips in response, or have music that has artificial high - try to compare not music, but voices of people in movies etc(they should be similar to a real person talking to you).

This is what I generally use to test whether a headphone sounds "natural" to me, and I found the ER-4S has boosted treble for me. Remember, how we perceive sound depends highly on our outer ears, and since IEMs bypass those entirely what one person hears might not be what another person hears.

 

[wanderman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by doobooloo Did you use a computer soundcard? There is a good chance that you're actually not hearing 19.5khz - rather you may be hearing some other fundamentals due to sound card limitations? I know that on my system when i do a frequency sweep, around 20khz the audible frequency actually is lower than what i hear around 16khz and it's a bit distorted as well.

I used a computer sound card. albeit and audigy but it can still goto sounds in excess of 20khz

 

[John Reeves]

Hi,

I had ER4's and was never really satisfied with the sound even using a Porta Corda. Bass seemed lacking and treble a little harsh. I found that I could not wear them for long periods of time without discomfort or fatigue. Yes, I used foamies and had a perfect seal. I put this down to a form of distortion. Maybe I was playing music a little too loud to compensate for the lack of bass. I use Naim amps for Linn speakers and although I perceive the benefits of equalization, I tend to be a purist and judge headphones without using it.

Irrspective of this when I got my UE10's I sold the ety's immediately. No comparison, the sound was better balanced with less distortion. The bass was back and the treble was extended and clear. I can use the UE's for hours without discomfort or fatigue. This includes getting **** faced on wine, scotch, beer etc. and playing them far too loud.

From a practical point of view, custom IEM's slip in and out very easily, so you tend to use them more often. If you've only got say 10 mins. to listen, you'll spend that long getting the ety's in and out!!

I've used a variety of sources. I'm sure that other custom IEM's are excellent and can only speak of my personal experience using equipment I own.

With regard to frequeny response, without upper and lower limits figures are meaningless. Frequency response curves are only a very general guide. Ear canals effect the perceived response. In the same way loudspeaker response curves are also only a general guide - who lives in an anechoic chamber??

Distortion is what causes fatigue, you can live with a poor response and over time get used to it. It's only when you then try something better that you realize the failings you've mentally adjusted to.

The other thing about UE's is that they are not fussy about the source - I don't mean the actual music file. With an MP3 player, a seperate amp adds very little to the quality, since because they are so efficient your volume control is set at a very low level.

Incidentally, I've now got a 60gb 5G, and using FLAC I have no hiss problems.

Cheers

John

 

[catscratch]

I guess it's useless to chime in after so many pages of discussion, but in my personal experience, I've found the ER-4P to be very hyped up in the treble. I've owned the E4, UM2, and ES2, so I have some basis for comparison. There is simply no way that I would consider Ety's neutral, but the definition of neutrality varies so much from person to person that this observation doesn't really have much merit. I've used the Ety's out of a variety of mp3 players and my trusty Rega Planet, and amped with a Porta Corda MkII and an Ety P/S cable. In all cases the treble, specifically, the lower treble, was overhyped, though it was noticeably less harsh when amped. The midrange also had a very dry and lean quality, as if the transients were being shortened somehow. This contributed to the illusion of very high resolution, but the actual resolution to my ear was less than the initial impressions suggested.

I think they are a good earphone for the money if you like classical and jazz, but their tonal balance really isn't suited for most studio rock and electronic music, which tends to be produced brightly to begin with.

I'll abstain from voting on the poll, since I think it's more of a popularity contest than a quality survey. Besides, very few people have experience with all of those IEM's. FWIW, in my personal stash, the ES2 clearly dominated, which is why I have just the ES2 left

In fact, I prefer it over most full-sized dynamic headphones (ATM).

 

[pkshan]

I thought I was listening to a speaker when I use ER4S.
The sound for ER4B is more alive.

A skilled mixing engineer will always have a headphone in his monitoring system.
So the 6-10k decrease in er4s is unnecessary, & it will makes music boring.
(I mix music too

)

btw,Most hiend(010,r10,k1000,orpheus,ue10,hd540g,k240df) headphones are diffuse-field equalized.