[Hotep303]

Hello all,

I am a borderline basshead, yet somewhat counter intuitively HD800S was the best bass I have ever heard in a headphone which probably alludes to the idea that I much prefer dynamic bass vs planar. I have owned LCD-2C (sold after realizing the bass wasn't authoritative and fast enough, plus the FR dips were kinda fatiguing and forced me to listen loud) HD600 (old unit, but the high frequencies were making weird unpleasant sounds even low volume crackling on some recordings) Campfire audio Vega (the bass was spectacular with WM1A, but still not authoritative like HD800, it was a good sinewave bass if you will - trully spectacular with low rich black men voices even though I much prefer high white women voices, but poor synth bass, plus I think I will never own in-ears again due to brain fatigue or whatever that bothered me). I have auditioned some more headphones like Focal Clear, Elear, HifiMan Edition X and other hifimans that I remember now which tells me that planars are not the bass I'm looking for, even m50 sounds more authoritative to me than any planar I've heard, but instruments and voices do shine with many beloved planars. I also owned audio technica m50 and what got me into good sound in the first place and made me a bass head was Audio Technica ATH-CKS90 in ears.

I am going to use these headphones for producing synth sounds of particular frequencies and so very flat isn't a high requirement for me. I will also do some other kinds of production so I am pretty sure the soundstage of HD800S will always remain useful even if I buy another great headphone that reproduces my bass synths better. Right now I see the Utopia as potentially a better transducer for me because of the things I've read, but I never got a chance to hear it. Another dilemma I have is that HD800S has a relatively low volume level on the low frequencies and as I said I am a bit of a basshead. Really if not this small big issue I would buy hd800 in a heart beat since the good value for price.

I am not rich, but very enthusiastic about sound so I am willing to work for something if it's really worth it. I am thinking of owning a complimentary AEON flow open to give me what LCD-2C gave me (which HD800 never could I think because of driver technology) without the huge dips in FR and an easy non critical listening experience for a fair price, plus I own a really good cable for these phones. Reading this forum though I see that maybe HE6 modded would be a good complimentary headphone, but I've never heard it and cannot tell if it's a contender for AEON flow open.

If anyone can relate to what I am saying about the HD800 bass, could you tell me if I should have my eyes set on the Utopia? Since the CFA Vega is dynamic and yet the bass isn't authoritative the way I'm looking for it to be, I am postulating that maybe it has something to do with the extremely light driver of the Vega which make it sound a bit like planar to me - good with sines but not so much with saw tooth and the like. Could it be that Utopia would have a similar issue? I just cannot relate pretty much at all to people who say planars like LCD-2 or hifimans have good bass (although I recognize some great features of those phones that HD800 cannot offer) and so I cannot really completely trust what people say about Utopia even if I know it's a dynamic headphone. I'm looking for the absolute best bass that a headphone can get me and am willing to spend the bucks on Utopia and cables if it really does it better than HD800 not to mention the bass level issues with HD800 and HD800S.

Thank you very much for any advice or insight

 

[tomb]

In your assessment of all of these different phones, you should probably factor in how they're powered.

The HD800(s), even given all its quirks with amplifier matching, is a very efficient headphone. As long as you supply it sufficient voltage, it will probably have a more realistic bass response than the other headphones you mention. Yes, it is often deficient in bass level. However, that is ridiculously easy to equalize, again because of the high efficiency and the fact that the driver is fully capable of reproducing that bass. The thing about Sennheisers is that many of them seem to have an impedance spike around 100Hz. If you pair them with an amplifier of very low impedance, that can cause a power loss that will seem as if the bass is sucked out of them. Since it seems the current practice for headphone amplifiers is to race to the lowest output impedance, this may be one reason everyone thinks the HD800(s) is intolerable with many amps.

Just MHO, but it already sounds like you prefer the HD800S. Maybe you should focus on the best amplification for that headphone. I've found that tube-output-transformer-equipped amplifiers perform the best with the top-of-the-line Sennheiser.

 

[Hotep303]

Thanks for a really useful reply. I will pay attention to those things. I don't think I will use EQ, because I've always found it muddying up things much more than helping with FR. My reference EQ is WM1A.

Thank you again, really cool response. I do wonder however if tubes are the best way to go for me since I'm really after that fastness and authoritativeness.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks for a really useful reply. I will pay attention to those things. I don't think I will use EQ, because I've always found it muddying up things much more than helping with FR.

If you don't know what you're doing/how to use an EQ, then obviously that's what's going to happen, kind of like grinding a knife against a honing steel at the wrong angle vs somebody that can grind it down properly with a whetstone.

My reference EQ is WM1A.

Not exactly the most control you can get, ie, if the bands aren't even variable then if a headphone has a section that has a jagged response at one problematic range then cutting on one much less boosting the lower point will make the other problem worse, depending on where the center frequency is, and if it doesn't have variable Q factor chances are the effect is very wide.

As for amplification, if that's what you've been using for the LCD-2, that one doesn't just get too loud to hear the high freqencies, you're likely also dealing with distortion by that point.

Thank you again, really cool response. I do wonder however if tubes are the best way to go for me since I'm really after that fastness and authoritativeness.

Tubes aren't magically going to guarantee that. I had the Little Dot Mk2 and even on a high impedance load the bass sounds louder but seems slower vs something like a Meier Cantate.2 or Gilmore Lite (which aren't even optimized for high impedance loads like the Mk2). Feist's One Evening is my go to track for that since it really sounds like you altered the pitch on the CDP or media player just because the bass boost on some amps can sound like you changed the note timings, as opposed to a more natural and gradual but still more audible decay (vs other amps that aren't as good for a different reason) on a better amp like a WooAudio WA6 or a Meier or AudioGD.

That said the HD800 isn't going to be as picky with some tube amps, so you can use OTL on it (but maybe not the LD Mk2), and if you use a high sensitivity, low impedance headphone alongside it, driving that with a decent OTL amp might not necessarily be a problem (unless it boosts the bass or makes it sound like a tin can thanks to high output impedance on OTL amps).

As for the headphone, what you're looking for might be along the lines of the Grado RS1 or GS1000.

 

[Hotep303]

If you don't know what you're doing/how to use an EQ, then obviously that's what's going to happen, kind of like grinding a knife against a honing steel at the wrong angle vs somebody that can grind it down properly with a whetstone.




Not exactly the most control you can get, ie, if the bands aren't even variable then if a headphone has a section that has a jagged response at one problematic range then cutting on one much less boosting the lower point will make the other problem worse, depending on where the center frequency is, and if it doesn't have variable Q factor chances are the effect is very wide.

As for amplification, if that's what you've been using for the LCD-2, that one doesn't just get too loud to hear the high freqencies, you're likely also dealing with distortion by that point.




Tubes aren't magically going to guarantee that. I had the Little Dot Mk2 and even on a high impedance load the bass sounds louder but seems slower vs something like a Meier Cantate.2 or Gilmore Lite (which aren't even optimized for high impedance loads like the Mk2). Feist's One Evening is my go to track for that since it really sounds like you altered the pitch on the CDP or media player just because the bass boost on some amps can sound like you changed the note timings, as opposed to a more natural and gradual but still more audible decay (vs other amps that aren't as good for a different reason) on a better amp like a WooAudio WA6 or a Meier or AudioGD.

That said the HD800 isn't going to be as picky with some tube amps, so you can use OTL on it (but maybe not the LD Mk2), and if you use a high sensitivity, low impedance headphone alongside it, driving that with a decent OTL amp might not necessarily be a problem (unless it boosts the bass or makes it sound like a tin can thanks to high output impedance on OTL amps).

As for the headphone, what you're looking for might be along the lines of the Grado RS1 or GS1000.

Well I was implying that solid state would do what I was talking about. Thanks for amp recommendations, though.

Grado has never been my cup of tea.

As for EQ what I've noticed from WM1A is that even if I adjust just one band by 0.5db it screws up the entire sound. It's a Sony Flagship DAP, one would think those people know what they are doing when it comes such a thing. I'd prefer to keep the signal pure.

As for LCD2C I used an amp of 1 ohm impedance - the ICON HDP. The issue with it is clear - the HUGE dip around 2-3k.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Have you tried the Sony z7m2 or z1r ? Ive heard the bass is quite pleasing.

 

[Hotep303]

Not yet man, but I think I'm more interested in open back. I need the speed of the bass rather than quantity or slam. Well I guess it's a bit complicated to put into words, but what seems to be the contenders for me are Utopia HD800S and ZMF Verite.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Well I was implying that solid state would do what I was talking about. Thanks for amp recommendations, though.

You did say you were wondering about tubes, which is why I said they're not exactly magic and might even be unpredictable depending on what headphone you'll use with an OTL amp or any amp that has high output impedance for that matter.

Grado has never been my cup of tea.

Not a lot of casual listening low impedance, high sensitivity headphones out there so might as well just scratch the idea of an OTL tube amp.

Transformer coupled amps aren't off the table but they'd be lower down the list due to price.

As for EQ what I've noticed from WM1A is that even if I adjust just one band by 0.5db it screws up the entire sound. It's a Sony Flagship DAP, one would think those people know what they are doing when it comes such a thing.

It's likely not even the 0.5dB increment that's the problem but the very wide Q factor, which is why I'm saying you need to understand the EQ and preferably have something that isn't just plain fixed freq graphic EQ. I use parametric on my phone and in my car's processor.

I'd prefer to keep the signal pure.

I'd personally use an EQ instead of using an amplifier to EQ headphones though. All I'd ask of an amp is very low noise, very low distortion or at least have a different distortion pattern than the ones known to be too bright (but quantitatively not have more relative to the signal) and provide a lot of power. Anything past that I'd change the headphone/speaker or use a parametric EQ.

As for LCD2C I used an amp of 1 ohm impedance - the ICON HDP.

Not exactly a good amp. I tried my HD600 on one and it had audible bass distortion. Somewhat bloated and the notes are followed by a soft but still perceptible "thwack," which means there's something wrong with how the drivers are moving.

The issue with it is clear - the HUGE dip around 2-3k.

It's not just that range. It's weaker above 1000hz. Practically all the frequencies there are weaker than below 800hz.

 

[Hotep303]

I'd personally use an EQ instead of using an amplifier to EQ headphones though. All I'd ask of an amp is very low noise, very low distortion or at least have a different distortion pattern than the ones known to be too bright (but quantitatively not have more relative to the signal) and provide a lot of power. Anything past that I'd change the headphone/speaker or use a parametric EQ.




Not exactly a good amp.

I know brother, will find a better one when I have the right headphones.

As for your perspective of amplification not being preferable way of tuning relative to EQ, it's an interesting perspective to me. Well from my experience I don't want to mess with EQ at all and from your experience as a person who seems to have much more experience with amps you say that it's not any decent solution in terms of somewhat adjusting the tonality either. That really is why I didn't buy the HD800S and why I'm still very hesitant about it. Truly something about that bass and authoritativeness is very appealing to me, but the quantity is drowned out by the rest of the frequencies and it's hard for me to justify the quality in this case when it is so hard to hear. I haven't heard so many headphones and there may be one that has 90% of the quality or even same kind of quality but a full volume or even elevated lower end... Maybe even some closed back phones could come close like the above mentioned sony Z1R.

Honestly I don't have any headphones right now and since I know I will want a complimentary headphone maybe I should just wait for my bass paradise and get something for laidback HiFi listening and for vocals... Just came across Koss/Massdrop ESP95X which is aparently quite well performing electrostat for 500 bucks. Then I was considering the Aeon Flow and just recently found out about edition xx for 600 $. The edition X was indeed my LCD2C without needing to turn up the volume in pursuit of what wasn't there, but I just didn't even consider them because of three times the price.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Not yet man, but I think I'm more interested in open back. I need the speed of the bass rather than quantity or slam. Well I guess it's a bit complicated to put into words, but what seems to be the contenders for me are Utopia HD800S and ZMF Verite.

I didnt notice until now, YAY A FELLOW LITHUANIAN!!!!!!!!! hello my brother! (or sister?)
why is it that whenever i tell people im Lithuanian (born in Canada but my mom is an immigrant (she was born in Vilnius but my grandmother was from Kaunas) they are like "what's Lithuania? where's that? is that in Russia?" im like :/

sorry back to sound stuff hahah.

Yeah i know what you mean, I got a chance at a local audio show to demo the entire focal line of headphones and some of their speakers. I did find the Utopia far superior in comfort than the stellia or clear. that being said, i think the stellia had better bass + bass detail. you should probably try the Stellia if you can get a chance. and if possible demo it side by side with the Utopia with the same source/songs. if i had to choose between the HD800S (ive had a listen), or Utopia i'd probobly take the Stellia LOL. honestly it had better detail in the low end. the bass although fuller, warm and thick, was detailed and crisp. I really enjoyed it more.

I've never had a chance to try the ZMF so i can't comment on them

I do listen to a lot of Synthwave Retro 80's music and Darkwave Synthwave, so I do like me some bass

 

[Hotep303]

I didnt notice until now, YAY A FELLOW LITHUANIAN!!!!!!!!! hello my brother! (or sister?)
why is it that whenever i tell people im Lithuanian (born in Canada but my mom is an immigrant (she was born in Vilnius but my grandmother was from Kaunas) they are like "what's Lithuania? where's that? is that in Russia?" im like :/

sorry back to sound stuff hahah.

Yeah i know what you mean, I got a chance at a local audio show to demo the entire focal line of headphones and some of their speakers. I did find the Utopia far superior in comfort than the stellia or clear. that being said, i think the stellia had better bass + bass detail. you should probably try the Stellia if you can get a chance. and if possible demo it side by side with the Utopia with the same source/songs. if i had to choose between the HD800S (ive had a listen), or Utopia i'd probobly take the Stellia LOL. honestly it had better detail in the low end. the bass although fuller, warm and thick, was detailed and crisp. I really enjoyed it more.

I've never had a chance to try the ZMF so i can't comment on them

I do listen to a lot of Synthwave Retro 80's music and Darkwave Synthwave, so I do like me some bass

Hey bro.


Clears were ok to me, not many strong points that I could see in them besides tonal balance. The bass was nowhere close to HD800 in my experience. So I suppose I'm ok with metal or at least aluminum.

It's likely I'll just have to find some European headphone exhibit and see if they have ZMF and Utopias for audition. Or decide that HD800S is a compliment even if I may own Utopias in the future and buy HD800S before comparing them to Utopia. Does owning Utopia and HD800S make any sense for someone uninitiated to the ways of the rich? Owning HD800 I would expect to have to spend more on the amp than with Utopia since Utopia isn't as amp-sensitive. Seeing as many people regard Utopia as a fair bit better overall headphone than HD800 it would be quite an easy choice if the bass has the same kind of "fastness" and authority. Well I guess I'm rambling at this point, should just a/b them and thus have the opportunity to make an informed decision especially when it comes to this kind of money. I may find that HD800 brings me most of the way there and instead of shelling out on Utopia save some money towards 009 which I assume would make an even better complimentary headphone than most/any planar. The voices I assume would be something else on 009.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Hey bro.


Clears were ok to me, not many strong points that I could see in them besides tonal balance. The bass was nowhere close to HD800 in my experience. So I suppose I'm ok with metal or at least aluminum.

It's likely I'll just have to find some European headphone exhibit and see if they have ZMF and Utopias for audition. Or decide that HD800S is a compliment even if I may own Utopias in the future and buy HD800S before comparing them to Utopia. Does owning Utopia and HD800S make any sense for someone uninitiated to the ways of the rich? Owning HD800 I would expect to have to spend more on the amp than with Utopia since Utopia isn't as amp-sensitive. Seeing as many people regard Utopia as a fair bit better overall headphone than HD800 it would be quite an easy choice if the bass has the same kind of "fastness" and authority. Well I guess I'm rambling at this point, should just a/b them and thus have the opportunity to make an informed decision especially when it comes to this kind of money. I may find that HD800 brings me most of the way there and instead of shelling out on Utopia save some money towards 009 which I assume would make an even better complimentary headphone than most/any planar. The voices I assume would be something else on 009.

Planars are great, the 009's ive never tried, and truth be told ive never tried any STAX as they're so hard to come across in shows or meets. I personally wouldnt invest in STAX because they're quite fragile, even the 009 or 007s. I did try the Hifiman Jade II and they were FAN-TAS-TIC!!!! the only downside is they're expensive and for enthusiasts like us its quite an investment.

I already invested quite a lot into my DT1990 Pros and ADI-2 DAC. I think my next pair of "premium" cans would be either the Audeze LCD2C or LCD2 Closed, or even the Hifiman Arya. I did want the sonys Z7m2 because i read good reviews.

I did try the HD800 and HD800S and i couldnt mesh with their sound signature. it didnt really feel with me. I did personally enjoy the Hifiman Arya more than the HD800S. but thats just me. have you tried the Aryas ?

 

[Hotep303]

Nah, haven't had the Aryas yet, but from what I read and what people who understand my appreciation for HD800 say it seems like very few headphones can pull off that articulation and speed. As of recently the only dynamic phone that was direct competitor was the Utopia.

As for LCD2C I a/b'ed them with edition x and I have to tell that edition X is a much nicer headphone unless you like very dark phones and don't mind a huge chunk of missing frequencies. With Edition XX at 600$ and living in North America for me that would be an obvious and clear win of the Edition xx.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Nah, haven't had the Aryas yet, but from what I read and what people who understand my appreciation for HD800 say it seems like very few headphones can pull off that articulation and speed. As of recently the only dynamic phone that was direct competitor was the Utopia.

As for LCD2C I a/b'ed them with edition x and I have to tell that edition X is a much nicer headphone unless you like very dark phones and don't mind a huge chunk of missing frequencies. With Edition XX at 600$ and living in North America for me that would be an obvious and clear win of the Edition xx.

Agreed, im in Canada so good headphones are expensive. I'm still trying to decide which next pair to get im looking for 1 more close backed and a planar to add to my collection. id rather they be separate as ive enjoyed planar mostly open. i do want a good bass response for my close backs as i'll use thoes for games/movies. open backs i use usually only for music.

 

[mrtim6]

I have the HD800s, Utopias, TH900s, Pioneer Master SE1 and the Sony Z1R.

Best bass in terms of quality realism was probably the HD800 however it’s been the least enjoyable imo h/p.
Most enjoyable bass with quantity and still very decent quality- not muddy at all and easy to drive is the TH900.
TH900 are also much cheaper than the Utopias. The Utopias do have a better mid/treble than the TH900 not by much. The TH900 have very nice and larger soundstage. The TH900 imagining is close to the HD800