Benefits of better amps and dacs

[bigshot]

If an amp has the proper power and impedance and it sounds different, it's either deliberately colored or defective. In either case, I would send it back and get my money back.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  If an amp has the proper power and impedance and it sounds different, it's either deliberately colored or defective. In either case, I would send it back and get my money back.

 
How do you know that, though? Have you read all the detailed thoughts of people who have listened to all this equipment? Have you talked to them? Or better yet, heard it for yourself? I guess "deliberately colored" could apply to some of them, especially when various tubes are involved. But literally every single person I've talked to who has experience with electrostatic headphones talks about how different the amps sound, including the top-of-the-line models. With all due respect, you seem to be oversimplifying things.

 

[Head Injury]

   
How do you know that, though? Have you read all the detailed thoughts of people who have listened to all this equipment? Have you talked to them? Or better yet, heard it for yourself? I guess "deliberately colored" could apply to some of them, especially when various tubes are involved. But literally every single person I've talked to who has experience with electrostatic headphones talks about how different the amps sound, including the top-of-the-line models. With all due respect, you seem to be oversimplifying things.

We can't say with certainty that an amp sounds the same as another without measurements. Nor, of course, can you say they sound different with only subjective, uncontrolled impressions and pleas to authority

 
Get us some measurements of these amps and then we can really start discussing!
 
(P.S. one of these days I'm going to buy a SR-009 and drive it with a SRM-252S just to watch people squirm

)

 

[Music Alchemist]

  We can't say with certainty that an amp sounds the same as another without measurements. Nor, of course, can you say they sound different with only subjective, uncontrolled impressions and pleas to authority

 
Get us some measurements of these amps and then we can really start discussing!
 
(P.S. one of these days I'm going to buy a SR-009 and drive it with a SRM-252S just to watch people squirm

)

 
Yes, measurements would be nice (and probably difficult to pull off properly), but I strongly suspect that what we can currently measure doesn't give us the whole picture. I do wish those with the means to do so would make such data readily available. (That includes advertising its existence so it's easy to find.) I'm sure at least some tests are out there. However, since we are talking about how things sound here, that also delves into the aspects of the headphones themselves and human hearing. I think a more sufficient test would be to additionally analyze the sound waves the headphones produce when driven by the amps.

 

[castleofargh]

well, amps for simple enough to drive headphones that measured transparent (with about the same impedance), have been shown a few times now to fool people in ABX.
same has been done with speaker amps, so obviously it's not something specific to the power required as long as there is enough provided.
based on that, I would say that amps sound different when they are different, so, when at least one isn't transparent.
 
subjective observations are much too dependent on FR and volume levels to even consider talking about the rest before those 2 are verified.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  well, amps for simple enough to drive headphones that measured transparent (with about the same impedance), have been shown a few times now to fool people in ABX.
same has been done with speaker amps, so obviously it's not something specific to the power required as long as there is enough provided.
based on that, I would say that amps sound different when they are different, so, when at least one isn't transparent.
 
subjective observations are much too dependent on FR and volume levels to even consider talking about the rest before those 2 are verified.

 
That's the challenge of it all, I think: finding what is transparent and what isn't. For all I know, none of the electrostat amps are fully transparent, despite all the flowery verbiage of how great they sound.

 

[castleofargh]

 

off topic: I lol @ your "plan to watch" anime list in signature ^_^. that's some massive project.
 /me is whistling   

 

[Head Injury]

   
That's the challenge of it all, I think: finding what is transparent and what isn't. For all I know, none of the electrostat amps are fully transparent, despite all the flowery verbiage of how great they sound.

I don't know, Stax says the SRM-252S has 0.01% THD at 1 kHz driving 100V (enough for 101 dB from most of their modern earspeakers, 100 dB for the SR-007). Not nearly enough to make a judgment, but I can't imagine it doing horribly everywhere else. I'd love to see someone do a thorough test of it, though. Anyone know of any?

 

[bigshot]

  How do you know that, though?

 
Because electronics should be audibly transparent. I apply EQ at the last stage, and I want to be able to replace an amp or player and not have to totally re-EQ my system. I want a replacement amp to be able to pop in and go.
 
I would love it if transducers were like that too, but unfortunately that isn't possible. But it isn't too much to ask an amp to be audibly transparent. I have a $75 cMoy headphone amp and a $350 AV Receiver that do that. It shouldn't cost a lot to get perfect sound.

 

[bigshot]

  We can't say with certainty that an amp sounds the same as another without measurements.

 
Just rack them up side by side and compare them. If they sound the same, they are audibly transparent. The odds that two different units would be colored or defective in the exact same way is very low. Add a third to the comparison and you can be even more sure.

 

[Claritas]

  We can't say with certainty that an amp sounds the same as another without measurements. Nor, of course, can you say they sound different with only subjective, uncontrolled impressions and pleas to authority

 
Nor can we say they sound the same based on measurements alone without also having heard them. 

 

[bigshot]

It depends on the measurements. Give me a full set of tests all done in the same way and I can tell you if two things sound alike.

 

[Head Injury]

   
Nor can we say they sound the same based on measurements alone without also having heard them. 

Um, yes we can. That's sort of the point of the measurements, to see how they perform

 
Well, we can't predict the cocktail of biases your brain brews while you listen to them, but we can say the signals are audibly the same up to the point when your brain receives them.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  off topic: I lol @ your "plan to watch" anime list in signature ^_^. that's some massive project.
 /me is whistling   

 

Spoiler: anime response

Wow, I had no idea you were an anime fan, much less a dedicated one! You gave Elfen Lied a perfect score, but hated Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, hehe! I take it you're not much of a Final Fantasy fan. I can't believe they're making an Elfen Lied live action movie. You have opposite tastes than I in the Blood franchise. Blood: The Last Vampire was my least favorite. Why did you watch the second season of School Rumble without watching the first?

I highly recommend Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni and Psycho-Pass.

 

  Because electronics should be audibly transparent. I apply EQ at the last stage, and I want to be able to replace an amp or player and not have to totally re-EQ my system. I want a replacement amp to be able to pop in and go.
 
I would love it if transducers were like that too, but unfortunately that isn't possible. But it isn't too much to ask an amp to be audibly transparent. I have a $75 cMoy headphone amp and a $350 AV Receiver that do that. It shouldn't cost a lot to get perfect sound.

 
"Should be" is theory. I'm more willing to accept that normal amps may sound the same, but electrostat amps seem to be more complicated.
 

  Just rack them up side by side and compare them. If they sound the same, they are audibly transparent. The odds that two different units would be colored or defective in the exact same way is very low. Add a third to the comparison and you can be even more sure.

 
That's just the thing. Not once have I ever heard of anyone claiming that electrostatic headphone amplifiers sound the same, out of those who have heard them. Virtually every comparison I have read insists that there are small to large differences, at least in subjective listening tests. This definitely warrants further research.
 

  Nor can we say they sound the same based on measurements alone without also having heard them. 

 
Exactly. Both approaches are necessary, and I'm not sure if we are able to properly measure all aspects of sound.
 

  Um, yes we can. That's sort of the point of the measurements, to see how they perform

 
Well, we can't predict the cocktail of biases your brain brews while you listen to them, but we can say the signals are audibly the same up to the point when your brain receives them.

 
It's simple enough to measure frequency response, but I'm not yet ready to accept that we can measure everything there is to know about audio.

 

[bigshot]

  "Should be" is theory. I'm more willing to accept that normal amps may sound the same, but electrostat amps seem to be more complicated.

 
Why would it be any different than a speaker amp? Those have more power than normal headphone amps. If amps for electrostat headphones are all over the map as you say, it's probably because they are poorly designed and made by people who don't know what they are doing.