[Jetlag]

Any chance you would be willing to send it to Benchmark for a few days so they could thoroughly bench test it and see how it compares to a stock DAC1 via a precise technical evaluation? I would love to see the two charted side by side.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetlag /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any chance you would be willing to send it to Benchmark for a few days so they could thoroughly bench test it and see how it compares to a stock DAC1 via a precise technical evaluation? I would love to see the two charted side by side.

2x

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetlag /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any chance you would be willing to send it to Benchmark for a few days so they could thoroughly bench test it and see how it compares to a stock DAC1 via a precise technical evaluation? I would love to see the two charted side by side.

Or they could just listen to the difference

 

[Jetlag]

If the audible differences are great it is something I would be interested in pursuing as long as I could justify it budget wise. I would also assume that a significant audible difference would be easily quantified via testing with laboratory grade test gear which Benchmark has plenty of.

I spent lots of time getting the acoustics right in my last listeneing room using very good quality test gear, I would consider this doing the very same thing. I'm all for improved sound quality (well as long as I can afford it that is).

 

[Tassie Devil]

Hi Guys

I can understand why you ask the questions you do but no, I'm not parting with it for Benchmark to test!!!

But trust me, it is a remarkable break through for CD. I was a digital Luddite for 2 decades and loved my vinyl (now sold). However got I sucked into digital through laserdisks (long story I'll not bore you with).

I tried out various processors from Theta through to Meridian 861 (which I still have). The first Benchmark purchased 12 months ago sounded ok but not spectacular. Nugent posts as "Audioengineer" on the digital Board of Audio Asylum (where I moderate the Music Board) and I followed up with a mod of the DAC 1 with him. Good but not spectacular. I then purchased a second DAC 1 and had it sent direct to him for a tubo mod. Result was much better. Both the unmodded and the turbo modded units were tested by some guys in the Melbourne Audio Club (I'm a member but was O/S at the time) and they voted the turbo as clearly better.

Then a month ago Steve excitedly contacted me and said he had made a breakthrough. Result was the turbo modded unit was sent for a rebuild and that is the one I'm raving about.

Trust me, I've been listening to recordings for 60 years (first was on a wind up Edison in the attic

) and this DAC, combined with the Esoteric is giving stunning results. I honestly never believed music could sound so good and, I'm not kidding when I say it sounds better than my SACDs.

Now you might have guessed that I live in a very remote (but beautiful) part of the world so have mostly only experienced what I have purchased - there are no longer any genuine hi-fi stores in this State and pitifully few in Melbourne across the water. It is now all home theatre (which I dio not despise). And this very remoteness makes ideas like lending the modded DAC 1 to Benchmark rather impractical.

But I'm seriously thinking about getting the other DAC 1 also modded for the system in the home office here. I might let the Melbourne Audio Club try that one out.

Yes, I'm an incurable audio-video nut, but a happy one

John

 

[music_man]

this guy just shows up on this board. after we just got done complaining about this thread turning into a sales pitch for modders. i don't know about you guys but i am smelling some bs here. if i am wrong i do apologize. seems sketchy though.

music_man

 

[CanMad]

Possibly it's a little bit off topic. But my guess would be that he is sincere, and just trying to offer some helpful experience. However the improvements would have to be pretty significant to justify spending more than double the cost of the original DAC1 IMO.

On topic, when I first bought my DAC1 (non-usb) I found a thread on a forum where John Siau was participating in the discussion. He suggested getting custom cables made to allow the balanced outputs to be hooked up to single ended inputs (which I did). From memory I believe this was to lower the impedance 'seen' by the pre-amp. However from the discussion on the new USB DAC1 it seems the impedance from the balanced output is 60 ohm i.e. double the single ended output. Is this a change due to the new output stage, or has this always been the case and John suggested the balanced to single ended connection for another reason?

Also given the discussion on balanced drive headphones, Tyll places great importance on a true balanced source to obtain the noted benefits. With headrooms balanced DACs using two DACS per channel. How does the Benchmark produce it's balanced signal? It's possible that the Benchmark does not produce a 'true' balanced signal by Tyll's definition, in which case the touted benefits (of balanced headphone drive) may not be obtained by using the Benchmark as a balanced source.

Maybe a possible new 'true' balanced model in the future?

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowmagnet /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm confused by most people's statements on this subject myself. I just wrote it off as people not knowing what the heck they're talking about, but I'm willing to hear them explain why the DAC1's headphone jack is not good to them. Maybe in a separate threatd, though, Jenga that this one is.

Most of the complaints I have read complain that the HP out is too bright. In fact, I am beginning to suspect that this is what leads some to suggest that the DAC1 is a "brighter" DAC than, say, the DA-10. My own experience is that the HP out is fine, not great, but certainly not bad at all. Where others find it bright, I find it a bit thin. Maybe a difference without a distinction. I would prefer a little more body. But this subjective preference really is seeking a more euphonic sound, and that is definitely not what the DAC1 is about (correct me if I'm wrong, Elias). Bottom line, if you don't like the analytical HP out of the DAC1, find a nice warm amp to pair with it.

 

[lowmagnet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bottom line, if you don't like the analytical HP out of the DAC1, find a nice warm amp to pair with it.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up what I've said on the subject in response to those complaints. Essentially, the DAC1 is quite dead-on accurate when tested and the point of the design is accuracy. I don't like any solution that adds its own euphonics to the mix not called 'headphone' or 'speaker'. I'm a firm believer in Hi-Fi, and I happen to think that seeking out coloration is the opposite of fidelity. Just one man's opinion.

 

[EliasGwinn]

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

That is, does anyone else use headphones that are too sensitive for the DAC1 such that the use of the volume control is limited?

Thanks,
Elias

edit: this was meant to be posted waaaay back after Lord Chaos' post about the headphones being very loud

 

[gregeas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EliasGwinn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Has anyone else experienced this problem? That is, does anyone else use headphones that are too sensitive for the DAC1 such that the use of the volume control is limited?

Yes, I have the exact same setup as Lord Chaos: I'm using Shure e500s out of the DAC1 headphone jack. It sounds fine, but I can't get past 9:00 o'clock without my ears bleeding.

I recently returned the Apogee MiniDAC because at normal listening levels, the e500s driven by the internal headphone amp had major, deal-breaking channel imbalance. I'm not hearing this on the DAC1, but I do wonder if sound quality would increase if I could get past 9:00.

 

[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif hi mr gwinn, i am still having a litle issue with the krell. to get the dac1's output to be as loud as the sony cd players output i have to run the dac'1 at 5.66 volts. at 5.66 volts there is a small amount of distortion present in the tweeters. the sony is only putting out 4.63 volts. i measured them both. i don't understand this. how is this possible? shouldn't the same voltage from two diferent products into the same input cause the same db reading at the same distance? if i have to i could just back off on the volume. not a big problem. i would wish you could explain this though.

What audio source are you measuring the outputs with? What I mean is, are you measuring with music or a test tone? You should be using a constant level test tone to make sure the comparison is accurate.

Assuming that you did use a test tone, and the voltage differences are as you say, the dB level will be different between the two, as it is directly proportional to the voltage. Loudness, however, has other factors involved - specifically, frequency content. If all things are equal, and the CD player sounds louder at identical voltage levels, it must be because there is additional frequency content in the analog signal of the CD player. This, most likely, is harmonic distortion. Without having the unit in front of me, I can't say for sure, but this is my best guesstimate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif also i was hoping you would comment on this. some people say the dac1's headphone amp is just an "add on" and it was just put there as an extra item. they say it is not so good sounding but it was not intended to be. i think it sounds worth $300 by itself. i know you sell it for about that by itself. i think people that do not like it simply are presenting the usual subjective opinions. it may not be everyones favorite but i certainly do not find it to be unworthy. i assume benchmark intended for the headphone amp to sound the best it could with in reason, and to compete with other comparably priced amps. is that correct? thanks, music_man

I'll try to answer this question without it sounding like an advertisement. At the risk of sounding less then humble, we feel the HPA2 (Benchmark's signature headphone amplifier, which is featured in the DAC1) is one of the most accurate and robust headphone amplifiers on the market (by robust, I mean it can handle an amazing array of loads without compromising the sound).

With that being said, there are users who simply don't want accuracy. WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT!! I stress this because, at the end of the day, we are all music lovers, and understand that music is a very personal experience. And that personal experience cannot and should not be quantified.

However, our objective with the DAC1 (and the HPA2) is not to add certain colorations or artificial stereo width, because the product then becomes subjectively pleasing to some peoples tastes and ideas of what a device should sound like.

Our objective is to provide the most accurate reproduction and representation of the audio possible, and let the recording speak for itself. We believe, as designers of audio reproduction systems, that we owe it to the musicians/producers/recording engineers to represent the colors and images which they artistically derived. We believe it is not our place to add such impurities, even if it pleases our own subjectivities. If I want to hear such artifacts, I'll add it to my own hi-fi in my house.

We use the most accurate measurement equipment and techniques available to achieve our objectives. We will strive and strive for precision and accuracy as we believe it is the crux of engineering fidelity.

I hope this doesn't come across as too much of a 'rant', or advertisement. If so, I apologize.

Thanks,
Elias

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif this guy just shows up on this board. after we just got done complaining about this thread turning into a sales pitch for modders. i don't know about you guys but i am smelling some bs here. if i am wrong i do apologize. seems sketchy though. music_man

I was as surprised to see this post as you. He generally posts only on Audio Asylum, where as he says, he is a moderator. However Audio Asylum website has been down for a day or two, so he found this thread....just a coincidence.

He is an honorable gentleman and a really nice person, as most Aussies are.

Steve N.

 

[lowmagnet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EliasGwinn /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is, does anyone else use headphones that are too sensitive for the DAC1 such that the use of the volume control is limited?

My Er-6i have that problem too, but they are also IEMs and they're 16ohm and 106dB/0.1V. the answer is less sensitive headphones. Especially since the 6i are designed for portable use.

 

[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanMad /img/forum/go_quote.gif On topic, when I first bought my DAC1 (non-usb) I found a thread on a forum where John Siau was participating in the discussion. He suggested getting custom cables made to allow the balanced outputs to be hooked up to single ended inputs (which I did). From memory I believe this was to lower the impedance 'seen' by the pre-amp. However from the discussion on the new USB DAC1 it seems the impedance from the balanced output is 60 ohm i.e. double the single ended output. Is this a change due to the new output stage, or has this always been the case and John suggested the balanced to single ended connection for another reason?

CanMad, this is a great question. The cables that John was referring to is not for impedance compensation, it is for proper signal routing and protection for the output drivers of the DAC1. Specifically, pin 3 of the DAC1 should be floating (ie, not connected), pin 2 should be wired to the center pin of the RCA cable, and pin 1 should be wired to the shield. This protects the inverted driver of the DAC1 from being shorted and damaged. The performance of this configuration will be near identical to the RCA outputs, but you will have the advantage of being able to use the attenuators if you need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanMad /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also given the discussion on balanced drive headphones, Tyll places great importance on a true balanced source to obtain the noted benefits. With headrooms balanced DACs using two DACS per channel. How does the Benchmark produce it's balanced signal? It's possible that the Benchmark does not produce a 'true' balanced signal by Tyll's definition, in which case the touted benefits (of balanced headphone drive) may not be obtained by using the Benchmark as a balanced source. Maybe a possible new 'true' balanced model in the future?

The DAC1 does produce a 'true' balanced signal. However, regardless of the source (two DAC's, balanced analog drivers, whatever...), we simply have no reason to believe balanced headphones provide any performance advantages. We have read the statements HeadRoom has made concerning this technology, and we have engaged in discussions regarding the validity of the claimed advantages. You can read about it on this post:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...pic=53801&st=0

Not only is there no clear advantages, there is a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE in that it will double the source impedance seen by the headphones (which will halve the damping factor). So, from an engineering perspective, balanced headphones does not seem like a good idea. We are always open to engaging in analytical discussion on the matter. Also, if there is a real reason to believe this configuration is advantageous, we would absolutely be in favor of advancing the technology. Until then, we are considering it unfounded.

Thanks,
Elias