Benchmark DAC1 now available with USB
May 2, 2007 at 5:52 PM Post #406 of 3,058
i will try to find out from krell.

the strange thing is that at that setting the music is not louder than the output directly out of the sony cd player(balanced) with the krells volume in the same position.

i can turn the dac1's volume to about 70% before i get distortion with the pads at 0. i think that krell has some type of overload input protection i will find out.

thanks,
music_man
 
May 2, 2007 at 8:19 PM Post #407 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by dip16amp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Is the "UltraLock" more than just "asynchronous upsampling" which some other DACs also have or is there something more to it than a "marketing tool" as mentioned in post #3 and #5 in thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235830

Just wanted to know if there is a difference.



Great question!

Benchmark's UltraLock(TM) system includes an ASRC, but the ASRC is just one component part of the total system. The entire UltraLock(TM) system includes:

1) A low-jitter master clock
2) A fully-shielded controlled-impedance clock transmission line
3) 3-dimensional shielding surrounding all digital signals
4) RF bypass caps connected using low-inductance RF layout techniques
5) Upsampler with over 100dB jitter attenuation at 1 kHz, 160 dB at 10 kHz
6) 3 Hz digital PLL corner frequency
7) Data recovery system that can tolerate > 12 UI jitter
8) Digital de-emphasis prior to upsampling (when required)
9) Upsampling ratios selected based upon extensive performance measurements
10) Soft mute for clean and rapid switching between inputs
11) Careful management of power distribution and ground returns
12) More

Swapping out the ASRC IC for a pin-compatible substitute will destroy the jitter attenuation of the DAC1. Swapping out the AES/EBU/SPDIF receiver will destroy the jitter tolerance of the DAC1. Changing the D/A conversion frequency will have significant digital filtering implications that have nothing to do with the performance of the ASRC. Replicating the DAC1 schematic without replicating the PCB layout techniques will significantly reduce jitter attenuation and degrade intrinsic jitter.

We have seen modified DAC1 converters arrive at our facility for repair. These units showed dismal jitter performance due to the insertion of a pin-compatible ASRC. We are also aware of modifications that include replacing the AES/EBU/SPDIF receiver with another IC that lacks jitter tolerance. Other modifications replace multilayer ceramic RF capacitors with audio filter caps in RF portions of the DAC1! These inappropriate capacitor substitutions destroy the jitter performance of the DAC1.
 
May 3, 2007 at 9:04 AM Post #408 of 3,058
mr. gwinn,

i am playing a 0db test tone at 1khz. the pads are at 0db. i am reading 2.03vrms with the variable volume at 50%. i am reading 8.76vrms with the volume knob at 100%. 2.03v the krell should handle easily. should't it be reading much higher voltage? or does that seem right?

i was also wondering if the dac1 usb sounds much better than the dac1 classic due to the new high current/low impedance drivers? i originally did not prefer the dac1 classic for enjoyment lsitening. now that i moved to the 0db pads i really do like it. apparently the lower impedance makes an audible difference.

thanks,
music_man
 
May 3, 2007 at 12:44 PM Post #409 of 3,058
The DAC1 USB and the DAC1 Classic will "measure" identically on a test bench, but they react differently to different loads. What I mean by this is: for a properly designed load (high impedance, low capacitive load input and moderate length analog cables), they will perform essentially identically. However, with a compromised load, the DAC1 USB will be able to 'shoulder' the load better then the DAC1 Classic.

For your setup specifically, the KAV400xi has sufficient input impedance (47k), but the manual, just like most (all?) manuals, does not state the capacitance that the source 'sees', so I can't say for sure. If there was a significant capacitance seen at the input, the result would be a high-end roll off.

Hope that helps.

Thanks,
Elias
 
May 3, 2007 at 12:55 PM Post #410 of 3,058
Music_Man,

I noticed there was another part of your post which I didn't address.

The 2.03 Vrms number seems right if you are measuring across pin 3 -> pin 1 or 2. If you measure across pin 2 -> 3, you should get double that amount: 4.06 Vrms.

4.06 Vrms = 14.39 dBu

The 8.76 Vrms at full output seems a bit low (~27 dBu). It should be reading closer to 9.5 Vrms (or 19 Vrms across pin 2 and 3) for +28 dBu.

Thanks,
Elias
 
May 3, 2007 at 1:59 PM Post #411 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by dip16amp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Is the "UltraLock" more than just "asynchronous upsampling" which some other DACs also have or is there something more to it than a "marketing tool" as mentioned in post #3 and #5 in thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235830

Just wanted to know if there is a difference.



Music_man,

I responded to the debate of AES vs. SPDIF, XLR vs. COAX on this thread...

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...99&postcount=9

...in case your interested.

Thanks,
Elias
 
May 3, 2007 at 2:27 PM Post #412 of 3,058
thank you mr. gwinn.

i was measuring between 1 and 3. my multimeter could be a little off too. it has not been calibrated in a while.

should i turn the volume down?
there is no distortion and it is not even as loud as my cd players xlr output.
i just do not want to go into the first 25% of the volume knob where the channels are uneven.

the 0db pad does sound better to me, should it?
when i had the 20 db pad on the volume did not get loud enough at 100%.

thanks,
music_man
 
May 3, 2007 at 6:06 PM Post #413 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif
thank you mr. gwinn.

i was measuring between 1 and 3. my multimeter could be a little off too. it has not been calibrated in a while.

should i turn the volume down?
there is no distortion and it is not even as loud as my cd players xlr output.
i just do not want to go into the first 25% of the volume knob where the channels are uneven.

the 0db pad does sound better to me, should it?
when i had the 20 db pad on the volume did not get loud enough at 100%.

thanks,
music_man



Music_man,

I don't know the max. input level of the Krell, but I wouldn't think you need to turn it down. I'd say trust your ears, if you think it sounds ok, then it probably does. If you want to find out for sure, give Krell a call and find out their 'max. input level before clip'.

Thanks,
Elias
 
May 3, 2007 at 6:42 PM Post #414 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by jsiau /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Great question!

We have seen modified DAC1 converters arrive at our facility for repair. These units showed dismal jitter performance due to the insertion of a pin-compatible ASRC. We are also aware of modifications that include replacing the AES/EBU/SPDIF receiver with another IC that lacks jitter tolerance. Other modifications replace multilayer ceramic RF capacitors with audio filter caps in RF portions of the DAC1! These inappropriate capacitor substitutions destroy the jitter performance of the DAC1.




These are certainly undesirable mods. There are a lot of hacks in the modding business unfortunately, just like there is a a lot of snake-oil in the cable business. They are mostly just trying to do what they believe is right and sounds good to them. I have gotten a dose of both from my competitors in the past.

Since we are talking about all the positive attributes of your DAC design, then maybe you can answer me one question:

Why did you ground the input winding of the pulse transformer, eliminating the potential galvanic isolation? Is this a pro-studio requirement?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 
May 7, 2007 at 3:12 PM Post #415 of 3,058
Hey folks,

Just spent the weekend in Philadelphia...what an amazing city!!

Steve, I'm going to ask John Siau to reply to your question.

Thanks,
Elias
 
May 7, 2007 at 4:14 PM Post #416 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif
These are certainly undesirable mods. There are a lot of hacks in the modding business unfortunately, just like there is a a lot of snake-oil in the cable business. They are mostly just trying to do what they believe is right and sounds good to them. I have gotten a dose of both from my competitors in the past.

Since we are talking about all the positive attributes of your DAC design, then maybe you can answer me one question:

Why did you ground the input winding of the pulse transformer, eliminating the potential galvanic isolation? Is this a pro-studio requirement?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio



Steve this is a great question.

There is more to the DAC1 design than meets the eye. The input of the pulse transformer has a balanced controlled-impedance connection back to the input jack where it is grounded to the chassis. It is impossible to see this because these traces are fully surrounded by ground planes. All of the input currents are returned directly to the point at which the coax shield connects to the chassis. This chassis ground is not the analog ground for the internal electronics, and RF currents into this ground point cannot flow through the analog ground plane.

The wiring of the pulse transformer secondary is as important as the primary. The secondary has a balanced connection to the digital audio receiver IC. This provides a well-defined path for the return currents.

Floating the digital audio input will void the authority to operate the DAC1 under FCC and CE regulations (unless the modification has been subjected to full FCC and CE testing). It is also not legal to sell modified units unless they are tested. Do you have FCC and CE test results for modified units?

Floating the coax shield usually increases RF emissions as well as susceptibility to RF interference. The digital inputs on the DAC1 are RF connections and need to be treated as such.
 
May 7, 2007 at 9:57 PM Post #417 of 3,058
Really confused here. I thought you could simply use the optical Toslink audio out from the Mac to the Toslink input of the DAC 1 without a $300 USB option. WHat is the difference in the way the digital output from the computer is processed? What is the optical input on the DAC 1 for then??

So does this mean I can't connect the Toslink out from my Mac computer to the presonus CS without another add-on and software to boot????
 
May 8, 2007 at 12:20 AM Post #418 of 3,058
If your Mac has optical out, that's all you need. No USB option necessary; just connect the cable and go. I have my DAC1 USB connected to a PC using the S/PDIF, and to my Powerbook with USB because it has no optical out.
 
May 8, 2007 at 1:25 AM Post #419 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by jsiau /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Steve this is a great question.

There is more to the DAC1 design than meets the eye. The input of the pulse transformer has a balanced controlled-impedance connection back to the input jack where it is grounded to the chassis. It is impossible to see this because these traces are fully surrounded by ground planes. All of the input currents are returned directly to the point at which the coax shield connects to the chassis. This chassis ground is not the analog ground for the internal electronics, and RF currents into this ground point cannot flow through the analog ground plane.

The wiring of the pulse transformer secondary is as important as the primary. The secondary has a balanced connection to the digital audio receiver IC. This provides a well-defined path for the return currents.

Floating the digital audio input will void the authority to operate the DAC1 under FCC and CE regulations (unless the modification has been subjected to full FCC and CE testing). It is also not legal to sell modified units unless they are tested. Do you have FCC and CE test results for modified units?

Floating the coax shield usually increases RF emissions as well as susceptibility to RF interference. The digital inputs on the DAC1 are RF connections and need to be treated as such.



Impedance-controlled connection? You mean the wires hanging out in the air soldered to the circuit-board?

I can understand the need to pass FCC emission testing. This does break the Faraday shield. I did some work with this and some very high-frequency CPU's at Intel Corp in the past. It can be difficult. I suppose if I ever had a complaint about the emissions from my gear interfering with some other equipment that someone might lodge a complaint with the FCC. Very unlikely though. Neve had a complaint yet. I take a lot of care to insure that my transmission-lines are properly terminated and that the impedances and current paths are correct, so that the emissions are minimized. This is even better than shielding, grounding and other band-aids that are typically added after the fact. Even though the Farady shield is not perfect, the emissions are still low.

I mod lots of different DAC's. Some of them do have the input winding floating, except for a .1uFd cap to ground on the low-side. Evidently some were able to pass CISPR, CE and FCC emissions testing or maybe they just dont care about emissions. This still does not maintain the Faraday shield, however it could. If the connector were isolated, but surrounded by a ring of small SMT capacitors that each connect to earth ground, then the FS would be intact, without actually DC-grounding the BNC connector. This would be the best of both worlds, galvanic isolation to minimize gorund-loop noise and shielding to minimize emissions.

The problem with emissions testing is that most companies typically use the worst, cheapest digital cable they can find and do what they have to do in order to pass with this cable. All cable connections must be connected and running for the test.

This is an unfair goal IMO. It causes companies to compromise their designs, usually adding jitter or potential ground-loops in order to accomodate a cheap, poor performing cable, or perhaps a bad impedance mismatch etc...

My strategy is to force the customer to use my cable and my terminations. I have control over both ends of the transmission-line, the source and destination. This way I can truly control the reflections on the transmission-line and the current flows. It's the reflections and overshoots that are usually the emissions culprits.

Here is another question for you, since you brought up impedance control and wrote "The digital inputs on the DAC1 are RF connections and need to be treated as such":

Why did you use a 50 ohm characteristic impedance BNC connector for the S/PDIF input, which is specified at 75 ohms?

Do you feel that the edge-rates are slow enough that the absolute impedance is not important?

Steve N.
 
May 8, 2007 at 3:30 AM Post #420 of 3,058
Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Here is another question for you, since you brought up impedance control and wrote "The digital inputs on the DAC1 are RF connections and need to be treated as such":

Why did you use a 50 ohm characteristic impedance BNC connector for the S/PDIF input, which is specified at 75 ohms?

Steve N.



Dan Lavry tried to explain that to you last year on his forum.
Here are some Lavry quotes:

"....RCA or just about anything out there....is somewhere between say 25 Ohms and 180 Ohms....that one inch discontinuity at the middle of a line with a signal of say 5 nsec rise time is virtually a non issue."

And more Dan lavry:
"I agree that an RCA connector, (if it is far from 75 Ohms impedance), would be a disaster for 10GHz digital signal transmission. It is certainly NOT a problem for say audio signals because they are too slow. .....AES and SPDIF signals are still way too slow to care about the impedance of an RCA connector."

"An SPDIF signal DOES NOT have spectra to GHZ."


Also--Here on HeadFi Mr Siau has addressed the question in this post:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/2414299-post3.html


Mark
 

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