[spwal]

errr,


I want to make sure we are on the same page here when i was refering to DAC1.1, I meant Bel Canto DAC1.1 which is the BC DAC1 with a factory upgraded powersupply. Its less than half the price of the DAC2 and apparently quite a good dac in its own right from what the shop guys tell me. Sorry bout the confusion...


Sean

what i also wanted to say was i think money is better spent on fine amplification. Ie, in retrospect, i would have put less time and money into a ubersource and more money into a fine headphone amp...

 

[modi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar BTW the Benchamrk is a lot less than 1700 If you want to know where to get it from pm me I got it for significantly less. Kunwar

Kunwar you are a champion mate

I have now put a Benchmark DAC1 on order and hopefully I should be in listening bliss in the next couple of weeks. Thanx for the advice and for steering me to a good deal.

 

[chris719]

ASRC's do not really eliminate jitter per se, the Benchmark DAC1 will still show some changes with transports as will the Bel Canto DAC2, although dacs with AD1896 may show less of a difference than dacs with no ASRC. There is a very very long writeup by a Crystal engineer who helped design the CS8420 on diyaudio.com forums about ASRC and jitter, it may be worth taking a look at for those of you who want to know more about it, search for posts by Werewolf. "Ultralock" and "jitter immunity" are just buzzwords.. with SPDIF there is no such thing as jitter immunity.

 

[remilard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris719 ASRC's do not really eliminate jitter per se, the Benchmark DAC1 will still show some changes with transports as will the Bel Canto DAC2, although dacs with AD1896 may show less of a difference than dacs with no ASRC. There is a very very long writeup by a Crystal engineer who helped design the CS8420 on diyaudio.com forums about ASRC and jitter, it may be worth taking a look at for those of you who want to know more about it, search for posts by Werewolf. "Ultralock" and "jitter immunity" are just buzzwords.. with SPDIF there is no such thing as jitter immunity.

What is the explanation for Benchmarks jitter measurements then? For example they show essentially zero jitter using thousand foot runs of cheap cable. Third party measurements from Stereophile seem to back up the claim that the DAC1 is much less susceptible to jitter than other DACs anywhere near it's price range.

Either way, I hear no difference among the AV-710, Pioneer DV-563a and a friends Meridian 508 as transport using newer cds. I imagine the Pioneer player might suffer compared to the Meridian for scratched cds but obviously this would not be a problem for the AV-710 either, which is what I use. Maybe I need to try a true high end transport, or maybe I have awful ears but I suspect a lot of people are not going to hear differences among transports and cables with the benchmark.

 

[chris719]

I am not saying you will necessarily hear a difference in transports and cables. It is my personal belief that the difference is minor unless the transport is extremely bad or the cable is unproperly terminated / wrong impedance etc..

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=3

This explains more than you would ever want to know about ASRC's like the AD1896 used by the benchmark DAC.

Here is a quote from the Crystal engineer:


1. Does the ASRC completely ELIMINATE all forms of jitter from the incoming (e.g. S/PDIF) stream? NO. It substantially, heavily FILTERS the jitter ... but does not eliminate it altogether.

2. Where do we "find" the residual jitter? Well, it certainly isn't on the output clock ... that's ultra-clean (by definition), derived from a local crystal oscillator. Only leaves one place ... the output data. So must we conclude that, after being heavily filtered, the incoming TIMING jitter is somehow "mapped" or imposed upon the DATA? The answer is yes.

HOWEVER (actually, there will be alot of "however's" in the upcoming posts) ... where I must take issue with the above quote is with it's use of the phrase "simple clock jitter". There's nothing "simple" about clock jitter, if the intention is to imply that clock jitter is "less harmful" or "easier to eliminate" than what ASRC does with jitter.

Want to eliminate jitter completely? Slave the source (transport) to the DAC. Want to eliminate jitter and remain compatible with S/PDIF? Good luck ... it WON'T happen with PLL-based clock recovery, and it WON'T happen with ASRC. However, ASRC is still superior to PLL-based clock recovery, for reasons we shall soon see

 

[Ph34rful]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes The benchmark is a great deal, but the Bel Canto smokes it. The Bel Canto is richer and more musical while still being every bit as transparent.

Is this from direct comparison? How did you come to this conclusion?
Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar I also managed to get the Bel Canto Dac 2 for purposes of auditioning.

Does this mean you have one right now to compare to your Benchmark? If so! What are your impressions?

 

[kunwar]

The Bel canto is a dac worthy of mention on head-fi.
The only problem is it has come up agaisnt something that defies logic, namely the DAC1.
how can something at this price range sound this good and whoop the pants of much better sources? the DAC1 apparentlky does this with panache and grunt to spare.
A source sounding nice has nothing to do with how expensive it is.
that has been proven time and again.

My observation of the dac2 after 4 days of constatn listening are as follows:
The Bel Canto is a pretty good dac but all that talk about leaving the DAC1 in smoke is a load of fluff.
The DAC1 has much tighter control of bass.
The treble is better than perfect, it is bloody perfect!!
the bel canto to me sounds coloured, music seems hazy, in fact at times some passages will sound dull through it where as the DAC1 might have you dancing.
Similarly the feeling of soundstage is more realistic on a DAC1
the LOTR soundtrack that has been recorded in a hall sounds like that.
On the dac2 it seems to become like your backshed recording
Why I used the LOTR recording is because I have heard it so many times that I can remember the dialogue or exact scene from the movie if someone asks me to.
The piece Minas Tirith from the 3rd CD involves Gandalf's ride to Minas Tirith. On the DAC1 the music kept soaring and soaring, there was this feeling that you were ascending to the 7th level of the city.
The dac2 couldn't get past the 2nd level. Anyone who has seen the movie knows what I am talking about.

Similarly the passage from Shelob's lair coming out of a DAC1 had me looking behind my back.
At least twice I felt as if Shelob might just pop out of the floor.
The dac2 muddied it too much.
For a product that costs $AU350 more in Aus, it could have done better.
The dac2 might be suited to Orchestral and Symphonic redcordings due to its darker presentation but anything lighter hearted or rock based sounds like crap.
I returned it today and frankly I am happy I did not get it before the DAC1.
I would have repented it

I love my music to be crystal clear, true to the recording, totally neutral.
I colour my music with my headphones/speakers.
I hate it if the source or amp does anything to the sound.
Simple as that.
The DAC1 does that and at a brilliant price.
I am not in any hurry to replace it with the DAC2.
if you have the dac2 and are happy with it, then I advise you not to listen to the DAC1, you will have a sour taste in your mouth.

 

[tiberian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar The Bel canto is a dac worthy of mention on head-fi. The only problem is it has come up agaisnt something that defies logic, namely the DAC1. how can something at this price range sound this good and whoop the pants of much better sources? the DAC1 apparentlky does this with panache and grunt to spare. A source sounding nice has nothing to do with how expensive it is. that has been proven time and again. My observation of the dac2 after 4 days of constatn listening are as follows: The Bel Canto is a pretty good dac but all that talk about leaving the DAC1 in smoke is a load of fluff. The DAC1 has much tighter control of bass. The treble is better than perfect, it is bloody perfect!! the bel canto to me sounds coloured, music seems hazy, in fact at times some passages will sound dull through it where as the DAC1 might have you dancing. Similarly the feeling of soundstage is more realistic on a DAC1 the LOTR soundtrack that has been recorded in a hall sounds like that. On the dac2 it seems to become like your backshed recording Why I used the LOTR recording is because I have heard it so many times that I can remember the dialogue or exact scene from the movie if someone asks me to. The piece Minas Tirith from the 3rd CD involves Gandalf's ride to Minas Tirith. On the DAC1 the music kept soaring and soaring, there was this feeling that you were ascending to the 7th level of the city. The dac2 couldn't get past the 2nd level. Anyone who has seen the movie knows what I am talking about. Similarly the passage from Shelob's lair coming out of a DAC1 had me looking behind my back. At least twice I felt as if Shelob might just pop out of the floor. The dac2 muddied it too much. For a product that costs $AU350 more in Aus, it could have done better. The dac2 might be suited to Orchestral and Symphonic redcordings due to its darker presentation but anything lighter hearted or rock based sounds like crap. I returned it today and frankly I am happy I did not get it before the DAC1. I would have repented it I love my music to be crystal clear, true to the recording, totally neutral. I colour my music with my headphones/speakers. I hate it if the source or amp does anything to the sound. Simple as that. The DAC1 does that and at a brilliant price. I am not in any hurry to replace it with the DAC2. if you have the dac2 and are happy with it, then I advise you not to listen to the DAC1, you will have a sour taste in your mouth.

thanks for the impression kunwar.
never tried the bel canto (i have another dac called apogee and its similar to the price of bel canto and benchmark), but i agree when it comes to transperancy, neutrality and PUNCH, its extremely hard to beat the benchmark.

 

[Len]

IME, I found the DAC2 was a lot more full-bodied then the DAC1. The DAC1 had more delicacy and air (probably why you love the treble so much), but it's just a different beast then the DAC2. I really didn't prefer either compared to the DAC of my CDP and ended up selling them both. With any types of seperates, component synergy matters a great deal; a DAC1 might sound great in your system whereas a DAC2 may not, but on someone else's system, who knows.

 

[kunwar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Len IME, I found the DAC2 was a lot more full-bodied then the DAC1. The DAC1 had more delicacy and air (probably why you love the treble so much), but it's just a different beast then the DAC2. I really didn't prefer either compared to the DAC of my CDP and ended up selling them both. With any types of seperates, component synergy matters a great deal; a DAC1 might sound great in your system whereas a DAC2 may not, but on someone else's system, who knows.

as you said , my system from start to finish is how I prefer to describe quite neutral right utpto where the headphones are plugged in to the amp of either the DAC or the headphone amp. very neutral, according to a friend who listened to some tracks he had mastered.
Now as I saif if you want the music coloured it is your choice but to me the DAC1 delivers on all criteria important to me.
For eg. listening to the track "Spectres in the Fog" of The Last Samurai soundtrack, I can almost imagine the moment. That is what I want, that is what dac2 does not do for me.

as for the player you are using currently I have heard the 65 model, I liked it but on some music especially electronic, it is too slow for my tastes.
of course, you might prefer music differently so the player suits you perfectly.
If I ever recommend the DAC1 (Pizza Base) to anyone, I clearly state my musical presentation preferences (Pizza Toppings) which can then be sprinkled onto my opinions, cooked up and consumed (End Result Belissimo)

 

[Ph34rful]

Just something I thought about... Was the Bel Canto you demoed burned in? Because I would of thought the 2 DACs to compare favorably. But who knows...

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ph34rful Just something I thought about... Was the Bel Canto you demoed burned in? Because I would of thought the 2 DACs to compare favorably. But who knows...

Good point! My DAC2 sounded quite different and clearly better after ~100 hours.

 

[kunwar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ph34rful Just something I thought about... Was the Bel Canto you demoed burned in? Because I would of thought the 2 DACs to compare favorably. But who knows...

this dac2 was a unit that is regularly given out for the purpose of trial and according to my contact at the store had seen well in excess of 350 hours of usage.
It is also used by them in one of their demo units.
Funnily after hearing the DAC1 the guy is getting one to replace their dac2.
He was quite surprised to find out the price as he reckons Benchmark would do very well to price it at 1200-1300 dollars and still be able to sell them quite well.

On the side, he reckoned that the DAC1's headamp kicks ass as well.
His personal headphones of choice are the AKG K501.
He does reckon that although dull headphones can be cured of there lethargy byt his amp, that does not necessarily mean that forward-sounding ( some people call this trait brightness) headhones will necessarily sound bright.
Case in question are my HD 25-1's and the MS Pros.
They have the synergy with this amp to excel. As I said in my opinions, if you look for warmth, laidback sound, a more relazxed presentation then the dac2 should be a good choice for you.
If you want clarity, neutrality and punch all across the spectrum and for all types of music, then DAC1 will be a better dac.

Again it is MHO.
you can take it whatever way you would like to .

Kunwar

 

[lcachola]

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard Either way, I hear no difference among the AV-710, Pioneer DV-563a and a friends Meridian 508 as transport using newer cds.

FWIW, I can't tell the sonic difference between a Sony PCDP, a NEC CDR-602, an Audiotrak Prodigy and the AV-710 when used as digital transports...

 

[whmacs]

Hi Kunwar,
I've sent you a PM in regard to where I can purchase a cheap Benchmark DAC1 here in Oz.

Thanks,
Stephen
Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar BTW the Benchamrk is a lot less than 1700 If you want to know where to get it from pm me I got it for significantly less. Kunwar