Beethoven Symphonies

[BAwig05]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Later Beethoven pc's, namely 4 & 5, don't seem to lend themselves too well to the soloist-conducts-from-piano approach. Maybe I am wrong, but is there any recording of these pieces with no conductor at the podium? Immerseel may re-record the Beethoven PC's with his own Anima Eterna orchestra, but I presume there will be a different soloist than himself. Mozart or early Beethoven concertos, that's a different story. Immerseel's earlier integral Mozart concerti (on the Channel Classics label) are quite beautiful (if also quite a bit laidback compared to some really animated performances, such as the two Staier/Concerto Koln recordings on Teldec). Here Immerseel conducts from the keyboard, as he did in a recent series of live recordings, available only as downloads from Zig-Zag T.

Barenboim's PC 4 & 5 conducted from the piano are interesting, and feature a solid Berlin Philharmonic behind him. They are also an inexpensive investment, less than 8 dollars here in the states. I believe that this is also his most sucessful 4 & 5, as his versions under Klemperer were bogged down by an ailing maestro.

I also believe that Zimmerman recorded the PC's conductorless as a tribute to Leonard Bernstein, who passed away before the cycle was completed.

Still, if I had to pick, Arrau/Davis and Szell/Fleisher still climb to the top of my list. For historical performace, I find Levin quite fascinating.

 

[pbarach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe I am wrong, but is there any recording of these pieces with no conductor at the podium?

Ashkenazy recorded all 5 Beethoven PC's and the Choral Fantasy conducting the Cleveland Orchestra from the keyboard. If you haven't heard of these performances before, it may be because they are unmemorable:
http://tinyurl.com/3xlzge

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbarach /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ashkenazy recorded all 5 Beethoven PC's and the Choral Fantasy conducting the Cleveland Orchestra from the keyboard. If you haven't heard of these performances before, it may be because they are unmemorable: http://tinyurl.com/3xlzge

Silly me. I even forgot that one of the my favorite HIP recordings of the Emperor, on Alpha 079, features Arthur Schonderwoerd as both soloist and musical director of the 21-piece orchestra Cristofori.

So Immerseel may actually re-record Beethoven PC's with himself playing and conducting.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Silly me. I even forgot that one of the my favorite HIP recordings of the Emperor, on Alpha 079, features Arthur Schonderwoerd as both soloist and musical director of the 21-piece orchestra Cristofori. So Immerseel may actually re-record Beethoven PC's with himself playing and conducting.

As I have that Schonderwoerd recording too (and it has grown on me over the year), I guess the only thing I can say is that hopefully Immerseel will consider doing this in the near future. Meanwhile, if I find myself in Belgium in the coming year, I'll be sure to get the concert listings for Immerseel.

 

[scottder]

Quote:

I don't know about anyone else, but I can never have enough Beethoven. It's an addiction.

I can stop any time I want! Honest!

 

[Bunnyears]

I saw Osmo Vänskä conducting the Minnesota SO last night. The program was Sibelius and Beethoven -- In Memoriam (Carnegie Hall premiere) and Symphony 4 Sibelius and the B5 after the intermission.

What a glorious night! I'd never heard In Memoriam before; it's a short piece that reminded me of the opening of the M5 that set an appropriately solemn mood for the Sib 4 (which my husband found veerrryyyy slllooooowww, especially the 3rd movement which is veerrryyyy slllooooowww, but so intense.) Now, I'm pulling out all of my recordings of the Sibelius 4, but I don't know if any of them will have the intensity of a live performance, especially one by a commited Finn.

The Beethoven was resplendent, performed perfectly and just amazing. Here are a few things I learned about Vänskä's Beethoven:

It is BIG BAND Beethoven! I had assumed because there is such transparency on the recordings that he scaled down the ensemble for Beethoven. NOT SO! The whole orchestra was on for the B5, and it's a big ensemble -- more than 8 double basses which really give the bass line incredible strength. Our seats were in the first tier, but when those basses and the timpany were going, the floor was buzzing/vibrating under my feet (never happens at home -- even with sacd and the subwoofer kicking in). The transparency comes from the fact that Vänskä gets that huge ensemble to play the most perfect pianissimos! They can do a pianissimo so soft that you can hardly hear it in the hall if someone is sniffling or if a chair is creaking next to you.

The Minnesota concertmaster is Jorja Fleezanis, and I have her recording of the Beethoven sonatas for pianoforte and violin. It's a darn good recording.

There is nothing second rate, despite what some critics might write about the musicianship of the instrumentalists of this ensemble. The Sibelius was not what I would have termed an easy piece, and they all performed beautifully. The playing on the Beethoven was in a word perfect. Perfect tone, perfect unison and perfect dynamic control and the flutes, piccolo, clarinet, oboes and bassoons were divine. It was as natural as breathing, and if you can believe it, better than the recording! If I have to compare their sound to another orchestra, it would be the Wiener Philharmoniker although the timbre is different, it's another big band that has great discipline. Vänskä or someone like him is exactly what the BP really needs. He would beef up the strings and give the Berliners the full, glorious orchestral sound that they have been missing. You can bet that whenever the MSO comes to town, I'll be getting tickets.

Edit: For anyone interested in Jorja Fleezanis's Beethoven sonatas, she used her own violin (by Lorenzo Storioni circa 1798 but with modern adaptations), gut and gut wrapped strings and an English bow from the early 19th century. Huvé played a fortepiano by Johann Schanz c. 1815 restored by Edwin Beunk, prepared and tuned by Gérard Fauvin.

 

[Tyson]

I picked up a couple of the Vanska disks based on reviews here and I'm quite happy with them. Definitely period practice influenced but very different from (say) the Gardiner set. Where Gardiner's beethoven is serious and explosive, the Vanska beethoven sparkles and dances. Glad I have both

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson /img/forum/go_quote.gif I picked up a couple of the Vanska disks based on reviews here and I'm quite happy with them. Definitely period practice influenced but very different from (say) the Gardiner set. Where Gardiner's beethoven is serious and explosive, the Vanska beethoven sparkles and dances. Glad I have both

Tyson
I have put off paying big bucks for newest Vanska and Dasgaurd and am going frugal picking up super cheap Menuhin Beethoven and Schubert sets.

Do you recall the wonderful 5CD Virgin label late Mozart symphony collection with Menuhin and small polish orchestra Sinfonia Varsovia, same team does these sets. For little more than price of one Vanska CD I get an entire Menuhin set, paid $21 at Amazon sellers........I will report when they arrive.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tyson I have put off paying big bucks for newest Vanska and Dasgaurd and am going frugal picking up super cheap Menuhin Beethoven and Schubert sets. Do you recall the wonderful 5CD Virgin label late Mozart symphony collection with Menuhin and small polish orchestra Sinfonia Varsovia, same team does these sets. For little more than price of one Vanska CD I get an entire Menuhin set, paid $21 at Amazon sellers........I will report when they arrive.

I'm not a big fan of any of the Menuhin recordings, all of which are perenially on the market in one form or another. I listen once or twice and then never again, his style doesn't appeal to me. However, if you are looking for more budget Beethoven, the box set of Klemperer's EMI cycle, including the Daniel Barenboim piano concerti, is available from Amazon for $32.97; which means the shipping is free as well. Klemp's Beethoven is old school Beethoven, but well worth the price of admission.

Personally, I'd skip the Klemp and the Menuhin and get the Vänskä, although that cycle is going to be around for a long time so there's no hurry to acquire it. I'd rather have something I'll listen to over and over than something I'll listen to once or twice and then either sell or bury in the storage boxes.

Meanwhile, Dausgaard has just issued a new volume (#9) in his series of LvB's complete orchestral music.

This one includes the 8th symphony along with numerous other shorter orchestral works that get a lot less exposure. If you are going to get it, order from Arkivmusic as it's almost double ordering directly from Simax. Meanwhile, you can download any part of the cycle from Itunes, and if you are only interested in the symphonies and concertos, that may be the way to go if the sound quality isn't an issue. You can also download the music in windows format from the website, complete with drm for about $1.32 per track. There's no indication of the sound quality that I can find, but if it's similar to other European download sites, it's probably around 192 kbps. You can burn 6 copies to cd under their license, and that's it. The cds are as usual, unprotected.

I'll post on the B8 when it arrives; still waiting.

A warning: Simax lets its recordings go out of print relatively quickly. Anyone considering this cycle shouldn't wait too long.

 

[pbarach]

He has a complete set of Beethoven symphonies on Arte Nova with Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra. This is a very cheap set. Has anyone heard it?
I have his Beethoven concertos 3 & 4 (Bronfman), Violin Concerto (Tetzlaff), and Triple Concerto (Shaham, Bronfman, Mork) recordings with this orchestra--they are extremely well played, with his Beethoven orchestral sound along the same lines as Vanska's (but better-recorded, even though the latter is SACD). I did not like the first two Beethoven piano concertos as well as the third and fourth, mostly because Bronfman was rather dull in these two pieces.

On the Vanska set, the dynamic range is extreme and on my system there is very little sense of precise imaging, whether I am playing either the 2-channel SACD track or the multi-channel SACD track. The performances themselves seem rather anonymous in style.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbarach /img/forum/go_quote.gif He has a complete set of Beethoven symphonies on Arte Nova with Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra. This is a very cheap set. Has anyone heard it? I have his Beethoven concertos 3 & 4 (Bronfman), Violin Concerto (Tetzlaff), and Triple Concerto (Shaham, Bronfman, Mork) recordings with this orchestra--they are extremely well played, with his Beethoven orchestral sound along the same lines as Vanska's (but better-recorded, even though the latter is SACD). I did not like the first two Beethoven piano concertos as well as the third and fourth, mostly because Bronfman was rather dull in these two pieces. On the Vanska set, the dynamic range is extreme and on my system there is very little sense of precise imaging, whether I am playing either the 2-channel SACD track or the multi-channel SACD track. The performances themselves seem rather anonymous in style.

I think most of the regulars on the board have the Zinman set. I got mine a few years ago when it was on sale at Caiman for just under $6.00 (yes, 5.95 for the whole set

). It's a fine set, the first to use the new Barenreiter editions of the scores. Tempi are fast, but well judged. It's one of the sets Gramophone named as most influential or greatest or something like that. I've all of Zinman's Beethoven and have only just received the first two concerti, but if the critics are to be believed they are also extremely well done. If you don't already have it, the 5th piano concerto is also available and is as well done as the 3rd and 4th.

Vänskä's Beethoven cycle is anonymous in style only if you consider performances of big band beethoven using Barenreiter editions and Beethoven's metronome markings at a high level of excellence anonymous. I've heard enough sluggish, opaque Beethoven to consider these far from anonymous. There's nothing like a really dull set to point out how easy it would have been to produce a mediocrity. The Vänskä/Minnesota symphonies are extremely well done, probably some of the best performances around, and that's with an orchestra not recognized as one of the top orchestras in the world. Listen to that 4th symphony, it's one of the best performances of that I've heard. The 5th is also a top recording. The 9th is justly acclaimed despite the fact that many critics have remarked that the orchestra is not composed of the incredibly virtuousos of say the Berliner Philharmoniker. Excellence is never anonymous. The Eroica is also a great performance even if Hurwitz deducted a point because he felt that large orchestras shouldn't have so great a dynamic range (the pianissimos were too soft for his comfort zone). The level of excellence is so high with that set that I can't think of another where the performances have been so uniformly high outside of the elect list of great cycles such as Karajan, Szell, Leibowitz, Toscanini, and Blomstedt to name a few. If you ever have a chance to hear Vänskä and the Minnesota Symhony orchestra doing any of the symphonies live, take it. You will be astounded by how well they play and big the orchestra is. That's the secret to those phenomenal fortissimos. The orchestra is so incredibly disciplined that the strings never drown out the winds. All that transparency is not achieved by decreasing numbers in the strings, but instead through great playing at true piano levels. As for the sound quality, I listen in SACD multichannel or redbook on ipod and I find nothing to criticize. It's probably one of the most natural sounding accoustics on disc.

If you want unanonymous Beethoven, the try Rattle's set. It's filled with so many quirks and idiosyncrasies that it's got his initials at the bottom of every bar of the music. If you want excellent Beethoven then get Zinman and Vänskä.

 

[eyeresist]

I think I understand pbarach's point - orchestral brilliance isn't really enough for Beethoven. His symphonies are musical rhetoric, and need to be declaimed rather than performed, this requiring a conductor of strong musical character as well as technical ability. Though I guess I'd prefer exceptional performance to the counter-intuitive interpretations of certain bandleaders...

 

[pbarach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeresist /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think I understand pbarach's point - orchestral brilliance isn't really enough for Beethoven. His symphonies are musical rhetoric, and need to be declaimed rather than performed, this requiring a conductor of strong musical character as well as technical ability. Though I guess I'd prefer exceptional performance to the counter-intuitive interpretations of certain bandleaders...

Two orchestrally brilliant Beethoven sets are Dohnanyi's (Telarc) and Szell's (Sony), both with Cleveland. You will not find better orchestral playing than either of these. But which would you rather listen to? Szell's performances have more of a structural and kinetic sense to my ears--every phrase is leading to what happens next. This is not the case with Dohnanyi's Beethoven recordings, which are like looking at a gorgeous static object. There is no comparison in the sound quality--Dohnanyi is much better--but IMO there is a big difference in the musical quality.

Concerning the Vanska set, I own the 3/8 and 9 discs. I borrowed the 4/5 disc from our local library (they have probably 100 SACD's) and listened to it yesterday. I would describe the orchestral playing and interpretation on these discs as efficient, with the strings a little thin-sounding compared to some other recordings. The recorded sound, and Vanska's balances, do let you hear more of the winds' contributions than you typically do with modern-instrument performances (but cf. Gardiner's set).

I don't mind the wide dynamic range of the Vanska set, if it's an accurate reproduction of their dynamic range in person. But I do find the recording lacks clarity in imaging. It's not the fault of the orchestra or the hall--just compare the superb recorded sound on the Ravel set that Skrowaczewski recorded in that hall when it first opened. Even on the bargain-basement Vox CD's, it sounded terrific.

I wouldn't consider Vanska's 4th to be among my favorites at all. I'd prefer Szell's, or Toscanini/BBC. For the 5th, Carlos Kleiber wipes the floor with most other performances, although the sound is hardly topnotch.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbarach /img/forum/go_quote.gif Two orchestrally brilliant Beethoven sets are Dohnanyi's (Telarc) and Szell's (Sony), both with Cleveland. You will not find better orchestral playing than either of these. But which would you rather listen to? Szell's performances have more of a structural and kinetic sense to my ears--every phrase is leading to what happens next. This is not the case with Dohnanyi's Beethoven recordings, which are like looking at a gorgeous static object. There is no comparison in the sound quality--Dohnanyi is much better--but IMO there is a big difference in the musical quality. Concerning the Vanska set, I own the 3/8 and 9 discs. I borrowed the 4/5 disc from our local library (they have probably 100 SACD's) and listened to it yesterday. I would describe the orchestral playing and interpretation on these discs as efficient, with the strings a little thin-sounding compared to some other recordings. The recorded sound, and Vanska's balances, do let you hear more of the winds' contributions than you typically do with modern-instrument performances (but cf. Gardiner's set). I don't mind the wide dynamic range of the Vanska set, if it's an accurate reproduction of their dynamic range in person. But I do find the recording lacks clarity in imaging. It's not the fault of the orchestra or the hall--just compare the superb recorded sound on the Ravel set that Skrowaczewski recorded in that hall when it first opened. Even on the bargain-basement Vox CD's, it sounded terrific. I wouldn't consider Vanska's 4th to be among my favorites at all. I'd prefer Szell's, or Toscanini/BBC. For the 5th, Carlos Kleiber wipes the floor with most other performances, although the sound is hardly topnotch.

First, I don't have the Dohnanyi cycle, but I know many people who prefer it to the Szell which they describe as lifeless. Szell was a great conductor, but he was also a control freak who had the reputation of over rehearsing his orchestra so that the best performances were often left in the rehearsal hall. I'm very happy with the Vänskä Beethoven and don't find that his recordings suffer when compared to Szell, Karajan or Toscanini. I don't know how you are listening to them, but on my system (5 large floor speakers and subwoofer), the imaging is as good as it can get. The strings don't sound thin at all, but it's certainly a less well upholstered sound than the BP under Karajan. The Minnesota orchestra isn't filled with virtuoso players the way the BP is, but the orchestra sounds as good, or even better than the BP does nowadays when I hear them in live performance.

I don't know what you are complaining about, but it seems to come down to a "Vänskä's Beethoven is too perfect therefore it's generic" complaint. Gramophone described the 4th and 5th recording as "Fiery, elegant, bristling with character – this is impressive Beethoven." I'm only sorry that Richard Wigmore's review of Vänska's Choral Symphony published in Gramophone never made it to their website.

You also quibble about the sound quality that no one else has complained about. You don't care for the engineering or the performances; clearly they aren't to your taste. You don't have to love everything that comes your way, but that doesn't make them second rate or less of an achievement than Szell's cycle or Toscanini's cycle. In my world there's more than enough room for things of excellent quality. Excellence is a rare thing and it's never generic. If you truly don't care for these recordings then resell them on Amazon or pass them along to a friend who will enjoy them more than you.

 

[pbarach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif First, I don't have the Dohnanyi cycle, but I know many people who prefer it to the Szell which they describe as lifeless.... Szell was a great conductor, but he was also a control freak who had the reputation of over rehearsing his orchestra so that the best performances were often left in the rehearsal hall.... I'm very happy with the Vänskä Beethoven and don't find that his recordings suffer when compared to Szell, Karajan or Toscanini. I don't know how you are listening to them, but on my system (5 large floor speakers and subwoofer), the imaging is as good as it can get.... I don't know what you are complaining about, but it seems to come down to a "Vänskä's Beethoven is too perfect therefore it's generic" complaint. Gramophone described the 4th and 5th recording as "Fiery, elegant, bristling with character – this is impressive Beethoven." ... You also quibble about the sound quality that no one else has complained about. You don't care for the engineering or the performances; clearly they aren't to your taste. You don't have to love everything that comes your way, but that doesn't make them second rate or less of an achievement than Szell's cycle or Toscanini's cycle. In my world there's more than enough room for things of excellent quality. Excellence is a rare thing and it's never generic. If you truly don't care for these recordings then resell them on Amazon or pass them along to a friend who will enjoy them more than you.

I don't understand the hostility of your tone. Differences of opinions make horse races. Let's disagree respectfully. It's great that you like Vanska's performances and own them--I may indeed sell them in the near future. I offered my opinions--yours are different. Perhaps we are misreading each other's tone, but there's no need to get offended or huffy.

Concerning Szell and his over-rehearsing, what you say may or may not be true, but in a sense it doesn't matter, since all that we have left is his recorded legacy, including many live broadcast recordings that have never been publicly sold. He left many exciting and moving performances. You or others might think his Beethoven cycle is lifeless, and that's your prerogative. But it's a preference, that's all.

Finally, concerning the Vanska cycle's sound quality: I compared it to another set of recordings by the same orchestra in the same hall that I think have vastly better sound as far as imaging goes. If you have those on hand, I'd be interested in your opinion of the two-channel versions of the Minnesota Orchestra's Skrow/Ravel versus the Vanska/Beethoven as far as sound quality goes. On your system, imaging is great on the Vanska surround recordings; on mine, it doesn't sound so hot in comparison to some other surround SACD's I've heard. Again, it's a preference.