[axlt2002]

Hello,

I'm going to receive my Shanling M3 Ultra in few days and I would really love to experience its 4.4mm audio output (it should provide a more powerful and clean audio signal) with my Sennheiser Momentum 4 that I currently use with its stereo cable (3.5mm / 2.5mm). So, my first question is: does the use of balanced output worth it with a stereo earphone in terms of audio quality or it could even sound worst? If yes (I hope is a yes!), should I go for a balanced to stereo adapter (i.e., 4.4mm male to 3.5mm female) to which connect the cable I'm actually using OR replace this with a new cable that has a balanced 4.4mm plug on one side and a stereo 2.5mm plug on the other? This way I should have the balanced signal until the earphone, right? In case, it would be great to have also some hints on which cable to buy.

Hope I was clear enough. Looking forward for help and suggestions!

Have a great day!

Alex

 

[msing539]

As far as I know, adapting a single ended cable to a balanced amp output like this can damage the amp.

 

[axlt2002]

Thanks a lot for your reply msing539. So I'm quite confused then...if what you are saying is confirmed, how do the following adapter and cable can work without causing issues? Do they make sense or are just, let's say, "gadgets"?

• Adapter
• Cable

Instead, if they do make sense, which is the better solution among the twos in term of audio quality? I would say the latter.

Looking forwards for some help in clarifying these points. Thanks!

​

 

[msing539]

You're welcome. Moon Audio wrote up on it so maybe this will help:

https://www.moon-audio.com/balanced-adapters-caution

 

[axlt2002]

Thanks a lot! Very interesting and useful reading indeed!

So, my understanding is that balanced output from DAC can be used without problems with IEM since these are independent by nature but in case of earphones that have a single stereo input for both left and right, this can damage the amplifier. Well, this is true for a lot of the aftermarket cables/adapters out there that are sold at very low prices. It looks that Moon Audio can produce such stuffs but they look to be quite more expensive (a lot!).

Thanks again for your help! My DAP amplifiers are safe!

Alex

 

[Pars]

The Moon audio article is correct. A balanced amplifier will be providing 4 amplified signals: L+, L-, R+ and R-. A single ended adapter will tie the L- and R- together for "ground". Since the amplifier is actively driving these signals, shorting them together will not make the amplifier happy and will likely damage it.

 

[axlt2002]

Thanks a lot Pars.

Just for my clarification, when you say "single ended" you mean also stereo connectors? Indeed my Momentum 4 (as all the other earphones) uses a stereo cable, but I think that the shortcut issue would be the same if the adapter or cable is not properly designed.

I think I should go for a good pair of IEM then to properly exploit the balanced output of the DAP.

Cheers!

 

[Pars]

By "single ended" I mean normal 2 channel stereo, as you would find on most audio equipment with pairs of RCA connectors, or normal headphones with a TRS plug. Most home audio equipment has the grounds of the inputs or outputs connected together. Older headphones would normally be wired with a 3 conductor cable (L, R and Gnd). Balanced headphones require 4 wire cables, and the two - signals should not be connected together.

IEMs normally need to use 4 conductor cables because each earpiece requires 2 conductors. If it is terminated in a stereo TRS jack at the amp end, two conductors (1 per) are connected to the sleeve, or Gnd of the connector.

 

[BS5711]

You can safely adapt balanced to single ended in many circumstances and so long as the adaption is set up correctly in terms of wiring, that is you most definitely do not tie the negatives together !

In respect of 4.4mm Pentaconn the Moon Audio article linked actually states this - they are excluding the 4.4mm Pentaconn T R R R S plug from their comments because it has a ground.

The proper way is to leave the negatives floating and use the 4.4mm ground and the two positives, that is what is happening inside the DAP where a balanced device also has a single ended output.

That is what this adapter does: https://ifi-audio.com/products/headphone-adapter-3-5mm-to-4-4mm/

BUT - that simply mimics the single ended 3.5mm jack so you literally gain nothing at all in terms of power or technical specs, it is a means to use a 3.5mm cable on a device that only has a 4.4mm jack.

You would need to get a proper 2.5mm four pole to 4.4mm five pole cable as shown in the image below, there are probably plenty of options at a Google search.

That said, the M3 Ultra is surprisingly powerful (I have one) and would likely do a fine job from the 3.5mm.

You will use a lower volume setting out of the 4.4mm than the 3.5mm and the 4.4mm technically is the superior performing output but I doubt you would hear any difference assuming that you actually properly volume match during any comparison which is near impossible to do correctly without testing gear.

 

[Pars]

Similar reasoning as to why some of us on HC felt that a 5 pin XLR should have been the standard for balanced connections on full-size amps and not the 4 pin. This would have allowed simple construction of adapters for standard single ended headphone connection as the ground would be available for use.

 

[BS5711]

Similar reasoning as to why some of us on HC felt that a 5 pin XLR should have been the standard for balanced connections on full-size amps and not the 4 pin. This would have allowed simple construction of adapters for standard single ended headphone connection as the ground would be available for use.

Doesn't dual 3 pin XLR do the same thing ? That is two negatives, two positives and a ground pin on each ?

Sorry I am not across XLR connectivity, I don't have anything with XLR.

 

[axlt2002]

You can safely adapt balanced to single ended in many circumstances and so long as the adaption is set up correctly in terms of wiring, that is you most definitely do not tie the negatives together !

In respect of 4.4mm Pentaconn the Moon Audio article linked actually states this - they are excluding the 4.4mm Pentaconn T R R R S plug from their comments because it has a ground.



The proper way is to leave the negatives floating and use the 4.4mm ground and the two positives, that is what is happening inside the DAP where a balanced device also has a single ended output.

That is what this adapter does: https://ifi-audio.com/products/headphone-adapter-3-5mm-to-4-4mm/



BUT - that simply mimics the single ended 3.5mm jack so you literally gain nothing at all in terms of power or technical specs, it is a means to use a 3.5mm cable on a device that only has a 4.4mm jack.

You would need to get a proper 2.5mm four pole to 4.4mm five pole cable as shown in the image below, there are probably plenty of options at a Google search.

That said, the M3 Ultra is surprisingly powerful (I have one) and would likely do a fine job from the 3.5mm.

You will use a lower volume setting out of the 4.4mm than the 3.5mm and the 4.4mm technically is the superior performing output but I doubt you would hear any difference assuming that you actually properly volume match during any comparison which is near impossible to do correctly without testing gear.

Thanks a lot BS5711,

I think you exactly answered to my questions in the initial post. Summarizing, using a cable that converts the balanced signal to a stereo one at the jack is better than an adapter from which I will use anyway the stereo cable. Having said that, even if using a cable, it would be anyway difficult to feel the difference between balanced and stereo if not compared at the same volume and conditions. Is that right?

What I have read about the balanced output is that it provides higher power, doesn't suffer about external interference (may be this apply only for very long cable), and it should offer better channel separation and sound stage. May be the latter is the only one that worth it, but as you said, I don't know if it would be really possible to ear such difference.

Anyway, tomorrow I will give to my M3U its first try...I'm quite curious about its sound!

 

[BS5711]

Thanks a lot BS5711,

I think you exactly answered to my questions in the initial post. Summarizing, using a cable that converts the balanced signal to a stereo one at the jack is better than an adapter from which I will use anyway the stereo cable. Having said that, even if using a cable, it would be anyway difficult to feel the difference between balanced and stereo if not compared at the same volume and conditions. Is that right?

What I have read about the balanced output is that it provides higher power, doesn't suffer about external interference (may be this apply only for very long cable), and it should offer better channel separation and sound stage. May be the latter is the only one that worth it, but as you said, I don't know if it would be really possible to ear such difference.

Anyway, tomorrow I will give to my M3U its first try...I'm quite curious about its sound!

I am not sure I follow your summary so I will do one for you

If you have only a 3.5mm cable use the 3.5mm jack on the M3 Ultra.

A 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter cable does exactly the same thing as the 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter plug, the wiring set up is exactly the same.

To get the advantage of the 4.4mm balanced you need a cable that is terminated in 4.4mm with no adapter used anywhere.

If you use an adapter to allow you to plug a 3.5mm cable into the 4.4mm jack you will only get the 3.5mm performance because of the way the balanced to single ended adapter works. You will literally have none of the benefit of the 4.4mm so there is absolutely no point in doing that since the M3 Ultra has a 3.5mm as well, use that.

If you get a proper 4.4mm cable for the headphone you will have the technical advantages that you indicated above but whether that translates into a difference in sound that you can actually hear is another matter. Personally I would get a 4.4mm cable for whatever headphones or IEM you have just because it is technically better and you can easily adapt back from 4.4mm to 3.5mm if you have another device that only has a 3.5mm jack. I figure you are paying good money for the DAP to have balanced design so you might as well use it even if in reality the difference is slight and perhaps not even audible. Call it peace of mind, you are using the best that the device can offer.

Hope that helps.

 

[axlt2002]

I am not sure I follow your summary so I will do one for you

If you have only a 3.5mm cable use the 3.5mm jack on the M3 Ultra.

A 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter cable does exactly the same thing as the 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter plug, the wiring set up is exactly the same.

To get the advantage of the 4.4mm balanced you need a cable that is terminated in 4.4mm with no adapter used anywhere.

If you use an adapter to allow you to plug a 3.5mm cable into the 4.4mm jack you will only get the 3.5mm performance because of the way the balanced to single ended adapter works. You will literally have none of the benefit of the 4.4mm so there is absolutely no point in doing that since the M3 Ultra has a 3.5mm as well, use that.

If you get a proper 4.4mm cable for the headphone you will have the technical advantages that you indicated above but whether that translates into a difference in sound that you can actually hear is another matter. Personally I would get a 4.4mm cable for whatever headphones or IEM you have just because it is technically better and you can easily adapt back from 4.4mm to 3.5mm if you have another device that only has a 3.5mm jack. I figure you are paying good money for the DAP to have balanced design so you might as well use it even if in reality the difference is slight and perhaps not even audible. Call it peace of mind, you are using the best that the device can offer.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for summarizing in a more understandable way!

I think I will go for a 4.4mm to 2.5mm cable as the one you reported in the attached figure. My understanding is that such cable carries the balanced signal from the 4.4mm jack until the 2.5mm jack where is than "converted" to stereo. My only remaining doubt (really?!?!) is that being stereo, I would have expected just three contacts (i.e. 2 black rings) while in the figure there are actually 4 contacts (i.e. 3 black rings).

Where Am I wrong?

 

[megabigeye]

You should check with @Sennheiser or @ericpalonen (both Sennheiser reps on Head-Fi), but as far as I can tell, the Momentum 4 is NOT wired for balanced and SHOULD NOT BE USED WITH A BALANCED CABLE OR ADAPTER.

Balanced (TRRS, TRRRS, 4-pin XLR) male to unbalanced (TRS, "stereo") female adapters or cables should NEVER be used.
Balanced cables MUST be balanced at BOTH ends, and the headphones MUST also be wired for balanced.

Using a "balanced" cable or adapter with an unbalanced headphone will result in damage to the amplifier/DAP and possibly to the headphones as well.