[Chris_Himself]

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One thing I have on my mind :
I do believe in loudspeaker cable being crucial meaning less is more. In that view, HP are mini loudspeaker right?! So HP cable must matter!!!?? That is uber logical to me!
Also there is no need of balanced power amp to loudspeaker cabling, so why is there such a hype in balanced HP amp for HP!???

 
There is a difference with balanced DAC > amp > headphone cable
 
Just reterminating something to dual XLR's alone doesn't equate to a difference. It's about keeping the two channels isolated through as much of the signal as possible.
 
Go to a DAC with dual AD1955 or WM8740 dac chips to a pair of RCA's/XLR's to a dedicated balanced amp and you will hear a difference. It's not just about cables, it's about how the sound is built from the ground up to have as less crosstalk as possible. Again it doesn't seem that important because we're dealing with such low power levels relative to speakers, but it's definitely there.
 
HeadRoom pioneered the balanced headphone game, they have a return policy on all their amps, I'm pretty sure if it was all smoke and mirrors, they'd be getting burned pretty hard on their flagship DAC/Amp's.
 
Just a reminder, just because it has two XLR's doesn't make it balanced, it has to have a dedicated left and right source, then dedicated L/R circuit, to balanced cables to have the maximum effect.
 
Also, I've spoken to HeadRoom at length about this and they do honest business, they told me that balanced isn't something to upgrade to if you're looking for better sound when I was asking about my HD600's and balancing my setup , it's just something to buy into from the getgo. 

 

[drSonic]

I suggest Denon D5000 over HD650 for more bass; both in quantity and quality, especially in quality.

 

[CyBeR]

Quote:

 
I wish that were the case. Some time ago people like yourself convinced me there was no difference and it was all in my mind. So, I put the stock cables back on my HD-800s and the result was awful. I do think the differences are far less than some people make them out to be and some people do go crazy, but while they don't significantly change the sound (I don't recall anyone actually going about measuring headphone cables with serious equipment), sometimes it is just that subtle adjustment people are after.

 
And you are able to discern between the stock cable and whatever cable you use now without knowing which is in use?
 
Because then you are the first person in the world to be able to do so. 
 
Psychoacoustics is a very interesting thing.

 

[Currawong]

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Quote:

 
I wish that were the case. Some time ago people like yourself convinced me there was no difference and it was all in my mind. So, I put the stock cables back on my HD-800s and the result was awful. I do think the differences are far less than some people make them out to be and some people do go crazy, but while they don't significantly change the sound (I don't recall anyone actually going about measuring headphone cables with serious equipment), sometimes it is just that subtle adjustment people are after.

 
And you are able to discern between the stock cable and whatever cable you use now without knowing which is in use?
 
Because then you are the first person in the world to be able to do so. 
 
Psychoacoustics is a very interesting thing.

 
Well, the way you put that statement is misleading if not outright wrong.

 

[CyBeR]

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Well, the way you put that statement is misleading if not outright wrong.

 
Please elaborate?

 

[drSonic]

Quote:

 
And you are able to discern between the stock cable and whatever cable you use now without knowing which is in use?
 
Because then you are the first person in the world to be able to do so. 
 
Psychoacoustics is a very interesting thing.

There has been times I could differentiate btwn different cables for HE-5 (99% accuracy) and HD650 (70% accuracy) in blind testing. However neither added or subtracted any bass or clarity. They just distort the sound little differently. Not in a good or bad way however, it's just a matter of preference.

 

[Currawong]

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Quote:

 
Well, the way you put that statement is misleading if not outright wrong.

 
Please elaborate?

 
I need to elaborate on "the first person in the world"? No, we're not going there.

 

[telecaster]

Yup D5000 is in my sight for testing!
 
As for balanced, I understand the fonctionning but I am puzzle that there are no "POWER" amp for loudspeaker with balanced design yet. Maybe in the pro world on stage when they need a speaker 30 feet away from their amps that exist but I have yet to see a domestical symmetrical power amp and loudspeakers yet!
 
I think I let the cable jeopardy for the most wealthy of us and concentrate on finding a more bassy headphone then HD650 for now! The stock cable has at least the advantage of being cheap, replaceable and light with excellent torsion capability making it disapear when you wear the cans!

 

[Audio-Omega]

I have used Zu Mobius v1 and v2 on HD650.  Bass was tighter but I didn't hear an increase until HD650 was driven in balanced mode.  

 

[olegausany]

Yup D5000 is in my sight for testing!

As for balanced, I understand the fonctionning but I am puzzle that there are no "POWER" amp for loudspeaker with balanced design yet. Maybe in the pro world on stage when they need a speaker 30 feet away from their amps that exist but I have yet to see a domestical symmetrical power amp and loudspeakers yet!

I think I let the cable jeopardy for the most wealthy of us and concentrate on finding a more bassy headphone then HD650 for now! The stock cable has at least the advantage of being cheap, replaceable and light with excellent torsion capability making it disapear when you wear the cans!

You are in a right direction. If I can enjoy BASS with D5000/7000 without external amp you should too with one

 

[Magick Man]

There is a difference with balanced DAC > amp > headphone cable

Just reterminating something to dual XLR's alone doesn't equate to a difference. It's about keeping the two channels isolated through as much of the signal as possible.

Go to a DAC with dual AD1955 or WM8740 dac chips to a pair of RCA's/XLR's to a dedicated balanced amp and you will hear a difference. It's not just about cables, it's about how the sound is built from the ground up to have as less crosstalk as possible. Again it doesn't seem that important because we're dealing with such low power levels relative to speakers, but it's definitely there.

HeadRoom pioneered the balanced headphone game, they have a return policy on all their amps, I'm pretty sure if it was all smoke and mirrors, they'd be getting burned pretty hard on their flagship DAC/Amp's.

Just a reminder, just because it has two XLR's doesn't make it balanced, it has to have a dedicated left and right source, then dedicated L/R circuit, to balanced cables to have the maximum effect.

Also, I've spoken to HeadRoom at length about this and they do honest business, they told me that balanced isn't something to upgrade to if you're looking for better sound when I was asking about my HD600's and balancing my setup , it's just something to buy into from the getgo. 

Oh, I'm very sure there is a difference regarding cables, but I don't believe it's objective. I don't think all the cable swapping hurts anything, really. Though, IMO, it may distract people from what really is making differences in their setups.

Edit: BTW, of cable makers out there, I have quite a lot of respect for you. The work you do is top notch and very reasonably priced, and that makes a big difference.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

 
There is a difference with balanced DAC > amp > headphone cable
 
Just reterminating something to dual XLR's alone doesn't equate to a difference. It's about keeping the two channels isolated through as much of the signal as possible.
 
Go to a DAC with dual AD1955 or WM8740 dac chips to a pair of RCA's/XLR's to a dedicated balanced amp and you will hear a difference. It's not just about cables, it's about how the sound is built from the ground up to have as less crosstalk as possible. Again it doesn't seem that important because we're dealing with such low power levels relative to speakers, but it's definitely there.
 
HeadRoom pioneered the balanced headphone game, they have a return policy on all their amps, I'm pretty sure if it was all smoke and mirrors, they'd be getting burned pretty hard on their flagship DAC/Amp's.
 
Just a reminder, just because it has two XLR's doesn't make it balanced, it has to have a dedicated left and right source, then dedicated L/R circuit, to balanced cables to have the maximum effect.
 
Also, I've spoken to HeadRoom at length about this and they do honest business, they told me that balanced isn't something to upgrade to if you're looking for better sound when I was asking about my HD600's and balancing my setup , it's just something to buy into from the getgo. 

 
I still have little love for the idea of balanced beyond for headphones that just need more power (HE-6!)   Like cables I'm sure it makes some small difference, however I suspect balanced versus a good single-ended setup is even a less difference than cables.  The notion of balanced was designed explicitly due to the signal loss and crosstalk that takes place in >20ft runs for pro-audio.  I can see value in balanced in home audio if you're running runs at that length, such as in-wall wiring or around-the-room wiring.  I have one speaker running on a 25ft line around the room (so I set both rear speakers on a 25ft cable.) 
 
With headphones, isolated channels or not, I think it introduces more chances for problems than solutions, and I think Headroom designed it to differentiate themselves and solve a problem that existed as a niche problem.  Since custom headphone cables (wink, wink) are sold in lengths over 20ft, it's logical to conclude that some people DO run 20+ ft runs from their amp to their headphones if their listening chair is far from wherever they have the amp.  And in those situations, balanced is no less useful than it is in pro audio.   And it's handy that some amp makers are offering balanced solutions for those that wish to do so.  But for 5, 10, 15ft headphone cable runs, the cable is well below the lengths that demanded balanced, even for recording purposes in the studio, even with crazy 8 and 10 awg cables. 
 
It's a hard sell when you evaluate the reasons for the existence of balanced at all. 

 

[Mr.Sneis]

I don't think the construction of the hd650 or hd600 cables are all that bad.  They are thinner gauge than your spendy aftermarket cables but they get the job done and are internally reinforced and durable enough.
 
I don't believe in spending crazy amounts of money for recables but it doesn't hurt to try especially with the hd650/600.  Usually if you buy used you can re-sell if you don't like it and not be out that much money.
 
In my experience the aftermarket cables can vary in quality and materials so it's quite possible to downgrade in build quality from the stock cables if dealing with a shoddy cable builder.
 
I think that copper/silver and going balanced do seem to make a bit of change in sound but they will not transform a headphone from one you don't like to one you do.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

I don't think the construction of the hd650 or hd600 cables are all that bad.  They are thinner gauge than your spendy aftermarket cables but they get the job done and are internally reinforced and durable enough.
 
I don't believe in spending crazy amounts of money for recables but it doesn't hurt to try especially with the hd650/600.  Usually if you buy used you can re-sell if you don't like it and not be out that much money.
 
In my experience the aftermarket cables can vary in quality and materials so it's quite possible to downgrade in build quality from the stock cables if dealing with a shoddy cable builder.
 
I think that copper/silver and going balanced do seem to make a bit of change in sound but they will not transform a headphone from one you don't like to one you do.

 
I've had something of a re-thinking of my stance on cables recently and have evaluated their benefits.   The HD650 cables, compared to the HD600 cables aren't that bad.  And they really are decent in terms of build.  However for a $500 headphone it's still a pretty thin, tangling, floppy cable.   The physical properties aren't ideal,  I'll leave the debate on sound up to those with more cable experience than myself, but I do think Senn could have done better on the HD650 cables and they are indeed an afterthought.   AKG, on the other hand, should be highly ashamed of the POS cable they pawn off on the K/Q70x.  I'd gladly take the coat hanger over that monstrosity.   I don't doubt aftermarket cables can make worlds of difference on both HD650 and K70x, but the AKGs could probably benefit hugely.  The thin, frail, mouse-tail cable looks pathetic enough until you realize it's carrying both channels, meaning 3-4 wires of the most miniscule gauge, definitely a common ground, all crammed into the tiniest of unshielded jackets.  
 
By contrast, look at some other headphones....HiFiMan that includes an aftermarket-DIY-worthy cable in the box.  They obviously chose to include thick high quality cable for a reason, or silver cable with HE-500, and I'm surei t's more than marketing.  Look at Denon, well loved headphones, tethered to their cable.  A cable that screams of the quality one would expect from Double Helix or other boutique cables.  Soft nylon weave, thick, a hard spit, heavy gauge, flexible, metal plug, UP-OCC copper.  Did Denon/Fostex include it for marketing or did they evaluate that such a cable did accent the performance they aimed for.
 
Audio Technia, another hard-wired cable.  Not the prettiest, probably not the best sounding, definitely not the thickest.  But it's wonderfully well made, with a nice jacket and plug, and is clearly thicker conductors than either Senn or AKG with more sheidling.  It's from their pro-audio cable series.
 
It seems most of the hard-wired cable manufacturers try to include a decent cable off the bat.  The detachable cable mfrs seem to put their resources elsewhere and give an "ok" cable in the box like the cheap $1 RCA interconnects you get for free with a DVD player.  But it's as though they assume you'll be using your own real cable later. Which isn't a bad way to go about it really.
 
Except AKG.  That's pitiful.  HD650's sock wire is decent enough that there are more diminishing returns on an upgrade, but the headphone will respond to an upgrade.  HD600 could certainly use nicer wiring though, even if just using HD650's stock wire.
 
I'm still debating on Silver or no-silver on my HD650s, personally.  I've long been curious about it, but still wonder if it'll ruin the nice laid back vibe of them.  If it were my only headphone it would be essential for me at this point to liven them up.  But since it's one of the collection, I don't need to try to turn them into something they're not.

 

[Mr.Sneis]

Yeah I can see what you're getting at.  From my perspective I keep in mind if you end up spending $$$ for an aftermarket cable the opportunity cost; you could spend that $2-300+ on another headphone, source, amp, whatever.  When you factor in that a cable is just conductors, solder, heatshrink/strain relief, and plug the value proposition is not so strong.