Böhm's Beethoven
Dec 9, 2005 at 8:42 PM Post #46 of 89
This thread has inspired me to listen to some of the many Beethoven cycles that I have accumulated.

Zinman continues to please as does the Gardiner, and edges out the Mackerras except perhaps for the 9th. It is very similar to the Zinman and uses the same new edition of the composer's works.

Norrington (live recordings on Hannsler): fun but not essential except for the Ninth which works out some problems of tempo in the most convincing way.

Blomstedt Beethoven Symphonies 1-9, Brilliant Classics. This set is so very good that I don't understand why more people don't have it! I continue to say that the Ninth is the best sung of all, especially the soloists who are just perfect. It's also priced extremely well.

Cluytens: the more I hear it the more annoyed I am by all of the tape hiss. Good interpretation and performance no longer is the only thing to consider when buying now that there are better recorded offerings.

Barenboim: Much maligned, it's early symphonies are terrific, the 6th (Pastorale) and 7th are outstanding, the 8th and 9th are also excellent. It's Ninth harks back to Furtwängler and is particularly satisfying. There is no symphony that is not performed well (including the Eroica which is probably the weakest in the set and the 5th which also is not as well done as the rest but still at a very high standard), and the sound quality is A-1. As a set it is extremely good and unbelievably well priced, especially in the budget boxed set released in UK which also includes the overtures. It's not Beethoven for period purists but it cannot and should not be dismissed as soporific. This is expansive, plummy sounding Beethoven that is so German one wonders if Barenboim were not born in Vienna or Berlin rather than Buenos Aires.

Szell as usual is wonderful, but the uneven sound quality and tape hiss has begun to tell. There is also a precision, a perfection of execution and dare I say it, a coldness that I am valuing less as time goes by. Perhaps someone summed it up well when they told me they like Beethoven with a little mud on the boots. With newer and more modern recordings all in the offing, I don't think that it will remain a top choice for me for much longer.

Of particular interest to anyone is the cycle now being recorded by Thomas Fey (student of Nikolaus Harnoncourt) and the Heidelberger Symphoniker (Hannsler). I have the first volume consisting of Symphonies 1 and 2 and the second volume consisting of the 4th and 6th. These are such excellent recordings that I recommend that anyone who comes across them buy them. His first forays are so much better than that of his teacher (Harnoncourt fans take note). Again sound quality is outstanding. Hopefully there are more that will soon become available. (Note: Fey's Haydn Symphonies are also amazing)

Hogwood's cycle is perhaps the big surprise to me. This set does better with the earlier symphonies but I'm finding it more interesting today than I did years ago when I first starting collecting the individual symphonies. I think this is a set that will be reevaluated up and down as time goes on. Whatever it is, it's not boring. You either love it or hate it, and on any particular day, I do.

Harnoncourt: I don't think this cycle is completely successful. I love certain of the symphonies, detest others. Sound quality is excellent but my problems begin with the compromise that Harnoncourt made at the beginning: It is a period performance with modern instruments except for the brass. It sounds strange to me as a result and some of the tempo choices just leave me cold. Harnoncourt is probably my favorite conductor living today because he experiments so bravely. He flies without a net but unfortunately sometimes he crashes, and crashed he has especially with the Pastorale which is completely awful in my estimation. This is a great set for someone who collects multiple sets but it should not be the choice of anyone who is just buying one Beethoven.

Which leaves the HvK cycle. I only have the 1963 set and I will freely admit that I hate Hvk because of his history during WW2. It's a prejudice that I have struggled with but it remains so I will not comment about his work.

I have the recently re-released Bernstein Beethoven (Sony) but with the exception of the Eroica, I haven't yet had the chance to listen closely. The Eroica ofcourse is a highly lauded recorded recording, so I am looking forward to a better acquaintance with these.

I will comment briefly on the Schmidt-Isserstedt cycle as I haven't listened to it in a while. It is well enough done in the German tradition, but I do recall significant tape hiss (inevitable for the date of its recording). It's packaged with the Backhaus piano concertos and Szeryng violin concerto, any of which I like or dislike on a given day. S-I was not scrupulous about Beethoven's tempos nor repeats (nor was Backhaus for that matter), but they are good examples of a style of playing which is no longer in fashion. This set is more of an historical curiousity rather than essential and more for the collector than someone who just wants one or perhaps two Beethoven cycles.
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 12:18 AM Post #47 of 89
Bunny,

those are some interesting observations you've made. Although I still haven't received my Zinman set, I'm already contemplating purchase of another one -- if only for the experiment's sake. Curiosity killed the wallet...

Hope I make sense -- I'm already half asleep and as for my grammar...
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 12:24 AM Post #48 of 89
bunnyears,
the hogwood "eroica" is, while not as nuanced as bohm's, energetic and fun. the rhythms are well sprung and the balance of woodwinds to strings is more even. on a good system the instrument detail is sharp, with a bright, almost edgy sound (typical of early hogwood recordings).
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 12:26 AM Post #49 of 89
I can understand exactly what you mean. It's an overwhelming urge to acquire, and buy, buy, buy. However, after posting I went on to listen to more of the Harnoncourt and it is, unfortunately worse than I remember! Add to that a plodding and very uneven 4th symphony and a completely unmemorable 7th.
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 12:34 AM Post #50 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter
bunnyears,
the hogwood "eroica" is, while not as nuanced as bohm's, energetic and fun. the rhythms are well sprung and the balance of woodwinds to strings is more even. on a good system the instrument detail is sharp, with a bright, almost edgy sound (typical of early hogwood recordings).



Redshifter,

I agree! Hogwood's Eroica is very well done as are all of the early symphonies. I had disliked his Pastorale for years, but now have really come to enjoy it. That said, the Eroica in the Zinman set is probably one of the very best that I have heard. It is a lean, mean fighting machine that really benefits from Zinman's , er Beethoven's breakneck pace. However, I just feel that the Gardiner cycle, also hip, pushes ahead by a nose. In fact, if asked to choose between them I would also want to know which one was cheaper.
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 1:10 AM Post #51 of 89
I have another Beethoven set that I've haven't seen mentioned: Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic from the early 60s. These were produced by RCA for Readers Digest. I picked the set up, used, at The Wherehouse for $8 and am constantly amazed at how energetic, volatile and dramatic the performances are. The 3rd gets off to a rip snorting start, and the coda of the finale is, by far, the best I've ever heard. Thrilling isn't strong enough. The 5th is faster than most then, or now, and the 7th is simply incredible. It was Beecham's orchestra and they play like gods. The closest thing I can match it to is Toscanini: in vastly superior sound. I love the set and can only hope that someday some of those wonderful RD recordings make it to general circulation. Has anyone else heard this set?
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 1:32 AM Post #52 of 89
Haven't heard it, but based on your description, I need to pick it up post haste. I can probably sell my soporific Barenboim set to finance it (sorry bunny, I had to say it
wink.gif
)
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 3:02 AM Post #53 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub
I have another Beethoven set that I've haven't seen mentioned: Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic from the early 60s. These were produced by RCA for Readers Digest. I picked the set up, used, at The Wherehouse for $8 and am constantly amazed at how energetic, volatile and dramatic the performances are. The 3rd gets off to a rip snorting start, and the coda of the finale is, by far, the best I've ever heard. Thrilling isn't strong enough. The 5th is faster than most then, or now, and the 7th is simply incredible. It was Beecham's orchestra and they play like gods. The closest thing I can match it to is Toscanini: in vastly superior sound. I love the set and can only hope that someday some of those wonderful RD recordings make it to general circulation. Has anyone else heard this set?


Sounds like a vinyl set that was issued on cd when they first started pushing the medium. I have Krips' Beethoven cycle on vinyl and I've seen that on cd at bargain basement prices as well. The Krips is characterized by fairly fast (for the day) tempos and a more Mozartean (Böhm like) approach rather than the romantic (Furtwängler) German approach, but the set, even on vinyl is marred by awful tape hiss and really indifferent sound. Although I don't have the cds, I have read that the beginning of one of the symphonies is actually clipped. I have to note that the Eroica really lends itself to the more classical interpretations standing as it does on the cusp between the classical and romantic traditions.

Edit: I just recently picked up the Toscanini set from RCA red seal (really cheap
etysmile.gif
) . My dad had the set on vinyl but I haven't actually listened in years (many, many years). Perhaps it's time to reacquaint myself with those.

Tyson,

I am not offended that you don't care for Barenboim's Beethoven. It is after all a judgement of taste, which cannot be argued.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 4:32 AM Post #54 of 89
There were TWO Krips Beethoven sets released. One, the dirt-cheap crappy sounding one, is on Bescol and was made from inferior 2nd-3rd-4th generation tapes of dubious origin. However, someone else released the recordings in pristine transfers from the original Everest tapes, which could sound very good indeed. These were very well received. I just don't know who carries them, or if they are available. Occasionally I see one on Ebay. For many of us from the LP era, Everest was kind of the Naxos of the day.
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 4:56 AM Post #55 of 89
mbhaub,

The Krips set I have is on the Everest label. I don't know how the cds sound, but I assure you the sound on the LPs is not particularly good.

The Bescol set is still available at amazon, and one reader has commented that the sound is just like his vinyl. I cannot imagine why anyone would spend $20 on this set when they could get the Zinman, Norrington or MacKerras for only a few dollars more unless they were inveterate collectors like a lot of people around here (myself included).

The Everest set was also available at amazon for a while but is no longer available.

The individual symphonies are still available on the Everest label.
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 6:53 AM Post #56 of 89
I seem to have many of the sets you have! Have to disagree about the Harnoncourt - I think it is the "best" modern set available, and the 7th in particular is terrific. Biting at Harnoncourt's heels is the Zinman set, which is, as you say, basically also a HIP set in modern garb.

Early music performers are usually my preference, but among them I find the Hogwood set undercharacterised and rough, Gardiner too concerned with double underlining the revolutionary (although I enjoy this set where I don't enjoy the Hogwood, because at least he tries), and still enjoy many of the Norrington performances for their trail blazing sincerity - 2 and 8 even today would be a top recommendation against all competition, HIP or not, and 3, 4, 5 and 7 similarly receive far better than competent performances.

I learnt this music through the 70s Karajan set, and I still don't mind parts of it, for example symphonies 3, 5 and 9 are very good, but 1, 2, 6 and 8 are not. I remember a 7th symphony with Isserstedt and this was my favorite as a teenager - haven't heard it for twenty years so it might be an interesting nostalgia trip should I ever want to go on one. This is unlikely as I tend to keep moving through performances, being highly averse to the idea of "best" or "reference" in a dynamic, ephemeral art like music.
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 1:12 PM Post #57 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub
I have another Beethoven set that I've haven't seen mentioned: Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic from the early 60s. These were produced by RCA for Readers Digest. I picked the set up, used, at The Wherehouse for $8 and am constantly amazed at how energetic, volatile and dramatic the performances are.


I have this set but not issued by RCA for CD, now on Chesky label which means best possible sound, hard to find, and high prices
frown.gif

Great find if you got entire set on RCA for $8!


Quote:

I just recently picked up the Toscanini set from RCA red seal (really cheap) . My dad had the set on vinyl but I haven't actually listened in years (many, many years). Perhaps it's time to reacquaint myself with those.


Bunny the first thing you will notice with Toscanini/RCA is how fast the tempos are. I recall in main Beethoven thread I did an actual comparison of some symphonies by many conductors and no one, not even Zinman has faster times than Toscy
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 3:40 PM Post #58 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by zumaro
I

Early music performers are usually my preference, but among them I find the Hogwood set undercharacterised and rough, Gardiner too concerned with double underlining the revolutionary (although I enjoy this set where I don't enjoy the Hogwood, because at least he tries), and still enjoy many of the Norrington performances for their trail blazing sincerity - 2 and 8 even today would be a top recommendation against all competition, HIP or not, and 3, 4, 5 and 7 similarly receive far better than competent performances.



Have you heard Frans Brüggen's set? It does not have the Norrington
"sincerity" you mentioned, but dramatic enough (most were recorded
live) to make it worth your while.

P0028944215625_1.1.jpg


Beethoven, Ludwig van (1770-1827)
Symphonien Nr. 1-9
+Coriolan-Ouvertüre;Egmont-Ouvertüre
Dawson, Nes, Rolfe Johnson, Schulte, Gulbenkian
Chor Lissabon, 18th Century Orchestra, Brüggen
5 CDs

Philips 442 156-2
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 3:41 PM Post #59 of 89
I think ppl interested in period performances of Beethoven
symphonies should not miss the sole such recording from
Jordi Savall:

Savall.1.jpg


Those who find period "Eroica" recordings to be too fast should give
this a try, for at least his observation of the composer's metronome
markings works naturally here
biggrin.gif
His trumpets and horns are probably
the loudest I have ever heard on disc. Marvelous.

Beethoven: Sinfonia (Symphony) No.3 "Eroica", Op.55 /
Coriolan Overture Op.62
Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations
Fontalis #8557
 
Dec 10, 2005 at 8:40 PM Post #60 of 89
Bunnyears: What is the vintage of those Everest LPs? If they were from the mid-60s on, they probably are terrible. I don't know the history of Everest, but something dreadful happened in that period -- maybe change of ownership. Their pressings were wretched. I remember buying a Mahler 7 that was obviously made from an FM broadcast with horrible sound and miserable surfaces. It was returned.
Yet I still have a fine Tchaik violin concerto with Tossy Spivakovsky with the London Symphony from the late 50s and the sound and pressing are exemplary. I also have an original Goosen's recording Tchaik's Manfred from the same period and it is very fine. There were so many companies whose pressing quality went to the dogs.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top