[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub Not so fast! Barenboim's set was not universally heralded by critics: "The result is a series of run-throughs rather than genuine performances...Speeds tend to be broad...what undermines most of these recordings is a curious lack of tension". As to the sound: "not helped by a rounded recording that could with advantage been brighter". That's from Penguin. American Record Guide on the other hand felt the set was an outstanding contribution to the Beethoven legacy in brilliant sound. Go figure. Just goes to show you: caveat emptor. Columbia didn't get the best sound possible in Cleveland. Best performances, no doubt, but Philadelphia got a better sound. And some of Szell's performances are so accurate that he bled them dry of emotional content. If you're looking for a fine set of symphonies AND concertos, consider the box from Decca with Schimdt-Isserstedt and the Vienna Philharmonic. Great 1960's Decca sound, and performances from an orchestra and conductor who had the tradition down pat. Tremendous bargain for the big orchestra fans.

MB thanks for synopsis, I find I often agree with your points. The "Schimdt-Isserstedt" Decca box set is one of the few to so far eluded my collection but I have often considered buying it......perhaps now I have some additional motivation.

As for Barenboin.....I mentioned to Bunny before almost everything I have tried by him in the past has been less than stellar, so he is not on my Beethoven buy list. Last purchase was his Schumann symphony set which recieved rave reviews from professionals, yet I found them bland and far too broad and reserved compared to the elite versions.

As for Szell/Sony set I have no real problems with sound or performances in general, easy recommendation. If the remastered sound is better then all the more reason to get that budget import set Bunny found.

KS makes good point that many interpitations are valid and satisfying, therefore the Beethoven collections continue to accumulate.

 

[Bunnyears]

DA,

I have the Schmidt-Isserstedt Beethoven Symphonies combined in a boxed set with the Backhaus Piano Concertos and Szeryng violin concerto. It is still available at amazon if you are still interested in acquiring it. Price for the set seems reasonable enough used for what the set contains. I'm not sure that the set would stay in your collection that long. There is tape hiss in abundance, really poor sound quality in spots, and he plays fast and loose with the text and takes none of the repeats in the 9th for example. I also recall that the piano concertos although good were not really in the same class as the Fleisher/Szell or Boehm/Pollini or Abbado/Pollini for that matter. Sound quality on the recordings is tolerable but not much more. As for the Barenboim, it beats the Cluytens set hands down, but you remind me that the Brilliant Classics Blomstedt Beethoven Symphonies are also out there, and they are excellent sound and a more conventional (broader tempos) interpretation with one of the best sung 9ths around. The Barenboim is a fun Beethoven set. Tempos not overly broad, the orchestra sounds great and there is good transparency so that the inner voices are easily discerned. It is a more continental style Beethoven than Gramophon would prefer and is more reminiscent of Furtwängler's style. In a word it is nearly perfect big band Beethoven.

Edit: In the end, it really doesn't matter that much which of the sets lands up on Rimsy's shelf as they are all fine. The only set that he shouldn't miss is the Zinman. And for more historically informed style performances there are also the MacKerras and Norrington editions as well as Gardiner's period instrument cycle and Hogwood's which I am coming to prefer over the Gardiner lately, especially in the earlier symphonies and the ninth.

After putting on the Schmidt-Isserstedt Eroica, I would have to say that I can't recommend it at this point as being worth the 40 odd dollars. It's not the most perceptive interpretation and sound quality pairs loads of tape hiss with very shrill strings.

 

[Bunnyears]

MbHaub,

A lot of the problems with the critics is that British critics tend to skew their recommendations towards British orchestras and conductors. American critics have their biases as well (if not so jingoistic as the Brits). I've had lots of problems with many critical recommendations having found myself hating things they loved, loving things they hated for example and then to confuse things entirely found myself occassionally in complete agreement with them. I've heard the Barenboim and I liked it, unlike other Beethoven which although well reviewed didn't really get the juices going.

 

[Kevin Sinnott]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears MbHaub, A lot of the problems with the critics is that British critics tend to skew their recommendations towards British orchestras and conductors. American critics have their biases as well (if not so jingoistic as the Brits).

You said a mouthful here. I'm amazed at how loyal many of the Brits are.
There's almost a reverse snobbery in the US. I try not to decide on the territory where the studio or hall is located.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears I've heard the Barenboim and I liked it, unlike other Beethoven which although well reviewed didn't really get the juices going.

Here in Chicago there's a home town dislike of Barenboim. Most of us think he's a tremendous pianist, but fails at conducting. Having said that, I was pleasantly surprised by a Ravel disc I found at a used store. For $2 I took a chance. I also heard him conduct Bartok this year, but I haven't sought out his work. I'm shocked it could better Cluytens, who surprised me as I didn't predict his abilities in Beethoven so amply displayed in the 6th. One of the best things about this forum is it reminds me of my own biases and opens me to new performances.

 

[Bunnyears]

Kevin,

Performance and tempos are pretty similar between the Cluytens and Barenboim as they both fall firmly into the German/Austrian school of Beethoven. Sound quality is much better in the Barenboim which benefits from modern recording technology.

I also know how hometowns can detest the men on the podium, I'm from NYC where we drove Zubin Mehta out in a tar and feather suit on a rail. Masur was popular with the trustees of the philharmonic while the public never warmed up to him that much (very middle of the road kind of guy).

Barenboim is justifiably criticized for portions of his work but he did get the job done with the Beethoven set and when I went to his recent Mahler concert with the Chicago SO at Carnegie Hall it was apparent that his orchestra really liked him and that is not always apparent. Unfortunately the music business nowadays dictates big name conductors that only spend the minimum amount of time with the orchestras as they travel from podium to podium, and that makes for very strange music. I doubt that nowadays there is an orchestra that is firmly stamped with the imprimatur of any conductor as in the days when Szell imperially commanded the Cleveland, Reiner stood at the helm of the Chicago or Bernstein gyrated, cavorted and danced in front of the NYPO.

 

[Tyson]

Barenboim's set is great.




Great for putting you to sleep, that is.

Go with Szell. Sound quality is good and performances are outstanding, and in some cases among the very best.

For even better sound quality and similarly spirited performances on original instruments, Gardiner is still my top choice.

 

[Bunnyears]

Fine, use the Barenboim cycle as a seconal substitute, just don't put on the Eroica.

From your previous post it's clear that you are biased towards the faster tempo interpretations that put Beethoven more into the Classical mold. I love that but I also love more romantic Beethoven, such as that of Barenboim, Cluytens, Schmidt-Isserstedt, and above all, Furtwängler. The most intriguing thing about Beethoven is that the music lends itself to many interpretations and Barenboim's is as valid as any. Barenboim falls squarely into the same tradition that produced Furtwängler and as a admirer of Furtwängler I do like the Barenboim.

 

[Bunnyears]

Fine, use the Barenboim cycle as a seconal substitute, just don't put on the Eroica.

From your previous post it's clear that you are biased towards the faster tempo interpretations that put Beethoven more into the Classical mold. I love that but I also love more romantic Beethoven, such as that of Barenboim, Cluytens, Schmidt-Isserstedt, and above all, Furtwängler. The most intriguing thing about Beethoven is that the music lends itself to many interpretations and Barenboim's is as valid as any. Barenboim falls squarely into the same tradition that produced Furtwängler and as a admirer of Furtwängler I do like the Barenboim.

 

[Bunnyears]

Fine, use the Barenboim cycle as a seconal substitute, just don't put on the Eroica.

From your previous post it's clear that you are biased towards the faster tempo interpretations that put Beethoven more into the Classical mold. I love that but I also love more romantic Beethoven, such as that of Barenboim, Cluytens, Schmidt-Isserstedt, and above all, Furtwängler. The most intriguing thing about Beethoven is that the music lends itself to many interpretations and Barenboim's is as valid as any. Barenboim falls squarely into the same tradition that produced Furtwängler and as a admirer of Furtwängler I do like the Barenboim.

 

[Bunnyears]

Fine, use the Barenboim cycle as a seconal substitute, just don't put on the Eroica.

From your previous post it's clear that you are biased towards the faster tempo interpretations that put Beethoven more into the Classical mold. I love that but I also love more romantic Beethoven, such as that of Barenboim, Cluytens, Schmidt-Isserstedt, and above all, Furtwängler. The most intriguing thing about Beethoven is that the music lends itself to many interpretations and Barenboim's is as valid as any. Barenboim falls squarely into the same tradition that produced Furtwängler and as a admirer of Furtwängler I do like the Barenboim.

 

[rimsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears In the end, it really doesn't matter that much which of the sets lands up on Rimsy's shelf as they are all fine. The only set that he shouldn't miss is the Zinman.

Well, I just got a brand new Zinman's set off of deutsches ebay for some 25 euro, shipping included. Moreover, Kleiber's 5th & 7th on Hybrid SACD should be on it's way soon. I have to say that I'm really looking forward to receiving both packages (not mentioning a pair of new HD 650

). That should do for a fine start...

 

[Bunnyears]

I'm sure you will enjoy it. The only symphony that I really felt needed to be supplemented was the 9th, and there are plenty of individual cds of that. Zinman's 9th tends to be of the "wham, bam, thankyou ma'am" variety. Just a bit too fast for my taste. That's a great symphony for historic performances, especially Furtwängler.

 

[redshifter]

the 1951 bfo live recording by furtwangler rates as the top performance of the 9th i've heard. there is an expansive tension and inner detail and humanity that is unmatched.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter the 1951 bfo live recording by furtwangler rates as the top performance of the 9th i've heard. there is an expansive tension and inner detail and humanity that is unmatched.

I rarely recommend recordings that don't have top notch sound, but I think that Furtwängler's ninth is worth getting.

 

[PSmith08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter the 1951 bfo live recording by furtwangler rates as the top performance of the 9th i've heard. there is an expansive tension and inner detail and humanity that is unmatched.

As memorable as the 1951 Bayreuth performance was, the 1942 Berlin performance is even better. The sound, though, is not as good as the below-average Bayreuth production values. There is a 1937 performance from London which gives us a good idea of what Furtwängler's pre-war interpretation looked like, but the sound isn't even as good as the '42 set. The '54 Bayreuth concert, recorded a bit before the famous Lucerne Festival, suffers similar sound issues, but one sees Furtwängler in transition from the exultation of '51 to the more introspective (read: somber) '54 Lucerne performance.