[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilson To me, Bohm's interpretations on 3rd and 6th were outstanding. Happy listening, W

i totally agree. the recording has a wonderful texture as well. the funeral march on the 3rd is the best i've heard.

 

[Bunnyears]

Talking about the Eroica, has anyone seen the BBC television movie about the creation of the Symphony? It's a gas, really silly in some ways but they have the Orchestre Romantique et Revolutionnaire (English group with a French name no less) doing the music. There's a bit that's a little strange about it, for instance the members of the orchestra complain at the opening note that "Orchestras don't play so loud..." Well, obviously the writer of this forgot about Haydn's Surprise Symphony! Also, Tim Piggott-Smith seems to be a prig again (I guess he's going to be a real stick forever as a result of his performance as Merrick in The Jewel in the Crown." Anyway they have Haydn complaining that the symphony has changed music because it is about the soul of the composer rather than any high ideal, and Pigott-Smith as the fastidious and critical Count Dietrichstein saying that despite it's completely jumbled (unclassical) musical structure he finds it curiously moving. hehe. Will critics never learn. It's a great starting point for any newby to Beethoven and is available at amazon and Amazon.uk.

Btw. when I put eroica into the search under dvd, they asked me if I wanted erotica. Muahahahaha

 

[rimsy]

I have to say that I'm really pleased with such an interest in this thread. Thank you all for your suggestions.

To sum it up for the moment, it seems that, apart from the Hybrid SACD version of Kleiber's 5th & 7th (sure bet), I have following options:

1) Zinman
2) Barenboim
3) Gardiner

(I'm currently inclined towards the first one due to budget reasons.)

I'm in for a set because I think that picking a decent one is a tad less complicated than selecting individual performances (at least at this stage). Nevertheless, I came across this suggestion on Amazon:

1 & 2 -- Walter
3 & 8 -- Szell
4 (live), 5 & 7 -- Kleiber
6 & 9 -- Böhm

Should I better start with a set and create me own collection after a lot of listening to various performances or should I try to pick the `crème de la crème' right from the beginning?

 

[Bunnyears]

I don't know who does these suggestions at Amazon, but I suspect that they are heavily influenced by marketing decisions. If you stick to the suggested sets you won't go wrong, and by all means also consider the Barenboim as it is only about £14 (including VAT). The same set in slightly different packaging (red box) is about $80.00 in the USA. Also, Szell's set of complete symphonies with the piano concertos (and those are reference for almost everyone) have been put into a set for about $30.00 available at amazon . That is a much better value than the individual symphonies.

The Kleiber B5 and B7 really stand alone as they are exemplar performances of the symphonies, especially the 5th.

 

[rimsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears The same set in slightly different packaging (red box) is about $80.00 in the USA.

I've found that one too and the price discrepancy took my breath away. That Szell complet looks like an awesome deal indeed. Alright, a set it is. The only problem left is which one to choose. Maybe a bit naive question -- considering Szell's and Barenboim's set, which one is better mastered?

 

[Doc Sarvis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimsy I've found that one too and the price discrepancy took my breath away. That Szell complet looks like an awesome deal indeed. Alright, a set it is. The only problem left is which one to choose. Maybe a bit naive question -- considering Szell's and Barenboim's set, which one is better mastered?

The Szell is much older - Barenboim was made just a few years ago.

 

[redshifter]

bunnyears,
i remember a schoolmate writing a paper on beethoven's "erotic" symphony and his only opera, "fellatio"!

one the first rehersal of the 3rd beethoven was listening (he could still hear) with a friend. his friend complained the orchestra came in too quickly for the repeat, and beethoven boxed his ears. he wrote it that way!

if you're interested thayer's "life of beethoven" is fascinating reading.

 

[rimsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Sarvis The Szell is much older - Barenboim was made just a few years ago.

The only customer review of Szell mentioned something about 'remastering'. Too bad it wasn't more detailed regarding the sound quality. Well, the recording is likely to be worse given the time the performance took place -- did you mean that? Add in the fact that it'll be available in 1-2 months and we seem to have winner.

EDIT: At least temporarily

.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimsy I've found that one too and the price discrepancy took my breath away. That Szell complet looks like an awesome deal indeed. Alright, a set it is. The only problem left is which one to choose. Maybe a bit naive question -- considering Szell's and Barenboim's set, which one is better mastered?

Sound quality on the Szell is good, but it varies from symphony to symphony. The recordings date from around 1957 to 1966 so they are limited by the technology of the day. The Barenboim sounds wonderful. It benefits from all that modern technology and has received top marks from every critic around for its sound quality as well as interpretation. You can't go wrong with it.

Note: Szell was a legendary conductor who was famous for the absolutely pristine and perfect performances he demanded and got from his orchestras. The symphonies were recorded in Severance Hall in Cleveland and when Szell was conducting it was probably in the top 3 of all orchestras in the world. Despite top marks for interpretation, the symphonies do suffer a bit from the variable sound quality.

I note that the Piano Concertos are no longer available as a separate boxed set, but they are available on three separately sold cds with the Concerto No. 5 (Emperor) bundled with a recording of the Triple concerto. If you are eventually going to get the concertos, then consider the cost of these against the cost of the Szell boxed set when you make that decision. Having both sets of symphonies is not a bad thing, but you can wait to get the Szell symphonies until you want the piano concertos.

 

[mbhaub]

Not so fast! Barenboim's set was not universally heralded by critics: "The result is a series of run-throughs rather than genuine performances...Speeds tend to be broad...what undermines most of these recordings is a curious lack of tension". As to the sound: "not helped by a rounded recording that could with advantage been brighter". That's from Penguin. American Record Guide on the other hand felt the set was an outstanding contribution to the Beethoven legacy in brilliant sound. Go figure. Just goes to show you: caveat emptor.

Columbia didn't get the best sound possible in Cleveland. Best performances, no doubt, but Philadelphia got a better sound. And some of Szell's performances are so accurate that he bled them dry of emotional content.

If you're looking for a fine set of symphonies AND concertos, consider the box from Decca with Schimdt-Isserstedt and the Vienna Philharmonic. Great 1960's Decca sound, and performances from an orchestra and conductor who had the tradition down pat. Tremendous bargain for the big orchestra fans.

 

[Wilson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter i totally agree. the recording has a wonderful texture as well. the funeral march on the 3rd is the best i've heard.

Redshifter, it is interesting that you felt that way, exactly the same as how I've felt about the 3rd since the '70s.

I first bought the Bohm's 3rd in the '70s, it had that painting of Napolean on horseback on the cover, and the funeral march stood out even during the first listening, and I also like the cadence of the triumphant ending of the last movement. Over the years I've come to treasure it.

And then I discovered Bohm's 6th in the '80s, I thought pacing and texture were beautifully done.


Happy listening,
W

 

[rimsy]

Hmm, caveat emptor. Shopping on the net can be rather difficult if you don't know exactly what it is you're looking for. So many choices, so many different opinions... While browsing through UK Amazon, I've found another set that's perhaps worth considering apart from Barenboim's: `Original Jacket' Szell. Seems like it's a remaster of the early 60's Cleveland cycle and it's much cheaper than in US. What do you think of that one? (Indecisiveness is a terrible thing, ain't it?

)

 

[Bunnyears]

Whenever you run across the Szell symphonies you are dealing with the same recordings. The Columbia boxed set with the symphonies is a repackage of the Original Jackets Szell which because of it's ridiculously high price did not really sell well. I bought that at a greatly discounted price because I did not have the complete set of Szell symphonies on cd (I had many on vinyl from my youth) and already had purchased the piano concertos (Fleisher/Szell) at a price that was the same as the new combined boxed set. Supposedly they remastered the set for the original jackets collection so the complete symphonies and concertos will be the same with the triple concerto thrown in as well. I understand from a reader comment that the set also has some of the overtures so I would certainly recommmend that over the original jackets collection. You really don't need the pictures of the original LP covers for the cds. They are so reduced in size as to make the notes illegible, which were then reprinted in the accompanying booklet. I don't know if the set has any liner notes, but I will bet the cds are the same.

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilson Redshifter, it is interesting that you felt that way, exactly the same as how I've felt about the 3rd since the '70s. I first bought the Bohm's 3rd in the '70s, it had that painting of Napolean on horseback on the cover, and the funeral march stood out even during the first listening, and I also like the cadence of the triumphant ending of the last movement. Over the years I've come to treasure it. And then I discovered Bohm's 6th in the '80s, I thought pacing and texture were beautifully done. Happy listening, W

wilson,
the highlight of the funeral march for me is the rising trombone solo near the end. bohm really understood the tragic majesty of that moment, especially considering to whom the symphony was dedicated and then undedicated.

 

[Kevin Sinnott]

I won't try to suggest favorites with Beethoven. There are too many. Every conductor has his view. If he's big enough, he issues two or more!

My experience with Bohm overall is he's a conductor who often makes a more subtle first impression, but over time I'm amazed at what he does communicate and how well he fits it into an historic perspective.

Beethoven, like Shakespeare, can handle many interpetations, all valid.