Audiophiles, Assemble! The Great Digital Audio Routing Challenge: Find the Missing Link and Make Audio History!!!!!!!!!! Everyone Welcome Engineers, Manufacturers, Audiophiles , Forum Members

[chrisyak]

I’ve been a professional audio engineer for over 30 years and about 18 years ago, for about 6 years, I was a senior lecturer in sound and music recording at a UK university. I’ve messed with a lot of stuff over that time, for my private home use, for my own and the commercial studios I’ve worked at and to demonstrate to students how/why audio things work.

ADC (Analogue to Digital Converter), you’ll need one of those to test/record analogue gear (amps, cables, etc.). You can’t really buy ADCs these days, they’re integrated ADC/DAC and you don’t need a professional/commercial one. Pro ADCs/DACs have lots of channels and complex routing, I’m just in the process of specifying one with roughly 400 ins/outs and a 4096x4096 routing matrix, you only need a 2 channel stereo ADC/DAC, so a prosumer rather than a pro unit. I’m not up to date with the current prosumer market but you probably don’t need to spend more than a couple of hundred bucks. It’s probably worth shopping around, as you probably don’t need any of the additional features many come with.

If you find something that seems suitable, let me know and I’ll have a look at the specs if you want.

G

I will for sure, thank you and have a great rest of your day!

 

[XTF1]

You can’t really buy ADCs these days, they’re integrated ADC/DAC and you don’t need a professional/commercial one

E1DA Cosmos ADC, although a little “geeky”, is one of the best ADC you can get at a still reasonable price.

 

[gregorio]

E1DA Cosmos ADC, although a little “geeky”, is one of the best ADC you can get at a still reasonable price.

I didn’t know about that one, not the sort of thing used by prosumer/home studio users because it’s really stripped to the bone, not even any mic pre-amps. From a quick cursory look, it would appear to be pretty much ideal for the OPs measuring/comparison purposes, very high resolution for relatively low cash. The only down side is the strangely very low input impedance, which could cause an issue with some consumer kit. It might be a no go for that reason, shame it would have been perfect if it wasn’t for that.

G

 

[XTF1]

I didn’t know about that one, not the sort of thing used by prosumer/home studio users because it’s really stripped to the bone, not even any mic pre-amps. From a quick cursory look, it would appear to be pretty much ideal for the OPs measuring/comparison purposes, very high resolution for relatively low cash. The only down side is the strangely very low input impedance, which could cause an issue with some consumer kit. It might be a no go for that reason, shame it would have been perfect if it wasn’t for that.

G

In this Cosmos line, E1DA also has the “Scaler”, (very) low-noise preamp, and “APU”, pre-amp + 1/10kHz notch… for an even geekier, but very high performances, measurement chain..

 

[gregorio]

In this Cosmos line, E1DA also has the “Scaler”, (very) low-noise preamp, and “APU”, pre-amp + 1/10kHz notch… for an even geekier, but very high performances, measurement chain..

Yep, the E1DA Scaler solves the problem and the cost of the ADC + Scaler looks to be about $350, not sure if that’s within @chrisyak budget but it almost seems like a made to measure product for what he’s after and with world class performance! Good find!

G

 

[chrisyak]

Yep, the E1DA Scaler solves the problem and the cost of the ADC + Scaler looks to be about $350, not sure if that’s within @chrisyak budget but it almost seems like a made to measure product for what he’s after and with world class performance! Good find!

In regards to price, I think it's important that I get something that is going to be exactly what I need and probably not a super steep learning curve. I know there will be one but a much more simpler interface or a piece of equipment that is not overly complex. User friendly comes to mind....lol

I I found the complete opposite of what I'm talking about but just doing some Google surfing. I came across a piece of equipment that for some reason caught my eye. Seems to check the boxes and I found some used equipment on eBay for 1/10th the retail cost. Not trying to cheap out. Just trying to get the best bang for my buck. If I can buy better equipment used for same or less price that's just a no-brainer. It's not a priority. Priority is getting the right equipment.

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/151919-ensemble-designs-be-30-audio-adc-dac-bi-directional

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1349802099..._VdAxrd4uxa88_-RyyZNBF2TowOgXPfXH50es8k_eXDK8

https://churchgear.com/search?type=product&q=Ensemble+Designs

 

[XTF1]

In regards to price, I think it's important that I get something that is going to be exactly what I need and probably not a super steep learning curve.

If price is not (too much of) a concern, the RME ADI-2 Pro is an excellent DAC/ADC combo.

(Not trying to direct you toward any product/brand in particular, but just mentioning what amateurs/non-pro interested in measurement seem to use the most…)

 

[chrisyak]

If price is not (too much of) a concern, the RME ADI-2 Pro is an excellent DAC/ADC combo.

(Not trying to direct you toward any product/brand in particular, but just mentioning what amateurs/non-pro interested in measurement seem to use the most…)

Those are really nice and could actually be my DAC on several systems. But most of them are a pretty penny. Money is an object. I don't want to be spitting over a thousand bucks. I'd like to keep it around $500 if possible. However RME is a very well done DAC at the same time. Could serve dual purposes for me. Is under consideration.

Any thoughts on the ones I had found. They're selling some used ones for blowout prices. 1/10th the cost.

 

[gregorio]

Any thoughts on the ones I had found.

Couldn’t find much about it. It professes to be a pro unit but I’ve never heard of it, can’t find specs beyond a very mediocre dynamic range of 106dB, no reviews or even mentions on pro audio sites that I can see, it’s quite old (2011), it’s list price is high for a 4 channel prosumer unit and the ADC only seems to have AES output, so you’ll need a DDC which will add significantly to the price and degrade performance. A poor choice by the looks of it.

I'd like to keep it around $500 if possible.

The Cosmos Line suggested by @XTF1 seems to be by far the best option, the ADC + Scaler + DAC appear to come out to less than $450 new and it’s performance is seriously impressive, not only way beyond audibility but superior to the RME, equivalent to the very best pro ADCs and even approaching the top of the line APx555 (commercial measurement) units, although without the functionality of course. So with appropriate free software, it doesn’t get much better unless you want to splurge ~$30,000 on an APx555.

Incidentally, in addition to free DeltaWave software that’s excellent for automatically aligning, level matching, etc., for comparisons, you might also want to check out the REW software, that’s also free. This has a learning curve too but will allow you to do many of the pure measurement (rather than comparison) tests, which will be meaningful with such a high performing ADC. I’ve not used or seen the Cosmos Line gear so I’ve no idea about its reliability but it looks pretty sturdy, if rather bland/retro for its performance. That’s a plus point in my book though, as it implies emphasis on audio engineering excellence as opposed to most audiophile products where performance is mediocre but you pay ten times more for a trendy looking custom milled aircraft grade aluminium case!

G

 

[chrisyak]

Couldn’t find much about it. It professes to be a pro unit but I’ve never heard of it, can’t find specs beyond a very mediocre dynamic range of 106dB, no reviews or even mentions on pro audio sites that I can see, it’s quite old (2011), it’s list price is high for a 4 channel prosumer unit and the ADC only seems to have AES output, so you’ll need a DDC which will add significantly to the price and degrade performance. A poor choice by the looks of it.

The Cosmos Line suggested by @XTF1 seems to be by far the best option, the ADC + Scaler + DAC appear to come out to less than $450 new and it’s performance is seriously impressive, not only way beyond audibility but superior to the RME, equivalent to the very best pro ADCs and even approaching the top of the line APx555 (commercial measurement) units, although without the functionality of course. So with appropriate free software, it doesn’t get much better unless you want to splurge ~$30,000 on an APx555.

Incidentally, in addition to free DeltaWave software that’s excellent for automatically aligning, level matching, etc., for comparisons, you might also want to check out the REW software, that’s also free. This has a learning curve too but will allow you to do many of the pure measurement (rather than comparison) tests, which will be meaningful with such a high performing ADC. I’ve not used or seen the Cosmos Line gear so I’ve no idea about its reliability but it looks pretty sturdy, if rather bland/retro for its performance. That’s a plus point in my book though, as it implies emphasis on audio engineering excellence as opposed to most audiophile products where performance is mediocre but you pay ten times more for a trendy looking custom milled aircraft grade aluminium case!

G

Thank you for your input and as well. Thank you also to @XTF1 for that find.

The Price is Right and there is no need to break the bank if it's not necessary. The price seems exactly where I can learn without finding a second job to support it.

Funny story about the looks, I am sure you know who Lake People, Violectric and SPL are. I love that bland retro almost industrial look. It's totally my style. The only thing it's missing is a couple of Vue meters ...lol... They actually match my setup better than I could imagine. When I first saw them I was sold on them but I didn't think at the price I was going to be so lucky. So in terms of aesthetics, it's going to match my retro system. I am actually having a analog switcher built using that old vintage retro looking style. I like my equipment to be industrial and retro. It's more about the engineering under the hood is what I'm all about and I think those styles are perfect.

I'll have a look around and see who's got the best deal on them or if I can obtain them through some of my other channels for a better price but they definitely will be ordered.

Next, I'm off to find some audio cabinets to sit on top of my table So I can separate all the equipment on my desk. Think of it as an open air rack. Sitting on top of your desk. Easy access from any angle. Maybe I need to look for something? Retro...lol... Some Rusty looking industrial steampunk looking audio cabinet. I will have to ask Google for that exactly.....lol

Thanks for the help guys. This is why I knew I would find it here. I'm not a pro and I won't be even with this equipment but I am going to be very educated with excellent measurements in benchmarks. The transparency of my findings will speak for themselves.

Thank you for the software suggestions as well. If there's anything else you want to throw at me, go ahead. It won't be a quick learning curve, but it'll be fun. New hobby learning something new and learning how to measure it correctly. It's like mastering a new sport or something...lol

 

[XTF1]

Thank you for your input and as well. Thank you also to @XTF1 for that find.

The Price is Right and there is no need to break the bank if it's not necessary. The price seems exactly where I can learn without finding a second job to support it.

Funny story about the looks, I am sure you know who Lake People, Violectric and SPL are. I love that bland retro almost industrial look. It's totally my style. The only thing it's missing is a couple of Vue meters ...lol... They actually match my setup better than I could imagine. When I first saw them I was sold on them but I didn't think at the price I was going to be so lucky. So in terms of aesthetics, it's going to match my retro system. I am actually having a analog switcher built using that old vintage retro looking style. I like my equipment to be industrial and retro. It's more about the engineering under the hood is what I'm all about and I think those styles are perfect.

I'll have a look around and see who's got the best deal on them or if I can obtain them through some of my other channels for a better price but they definitely will be ordered.

Next, I'm off to find some audio cabinets to sit on top of my table So I can separate all the equipment on my desk. Think of it as an open air rack. Sitting on top of your desk. Easy access from any angle. Maybe I need to look for something? Retro...lol... Some Rusty looking industrial steampunk looking audio cabinet. I will have to ask Google for that exactly.....lol

Thanks for the help guys. This is why I knew I would find it here. I'm not a pro and I won't be even with this equipment but I am going to be very educated with excellent measurements in benchmarks. The transparency of my findings will speak for themselves.

Thank you for the software suggestions as well. If there's anything else you want to throw at me, go ahead. It won't be a quick learning curve, but it'll be fun. New hobby learning something new and learning how to measure it correctly. It's like mastering a new sport or something...lol

My limited experience with audio measurements with the Cosmos thingies…

By and large, current audio electronics perform very, very, well, beyond what human ear can objectively detect. If you or somebody hear a difference between two similar DACs or Amps, the first (non-trivial !!!) task is to eliminate any subjective factor.
If there are still repeatable, reproducible, audible differences, it is often incredibly difficult to unequivocally tie the audible differences to an actual measurement difference.

I am absolutely in the camp that, any audio-related thing can be measured… But, it does mean it’s easy… The Cosmos ADC & al. product line enable these measurement, but I think you need to be prepared for a steep, humbling, learning curve (I’m neither smart nor knowledgeable, and when I learn a new thing in audio, it is only to realize how much more I don’t know ).

One last thing with the Cosmos’… You get a very high-performance measuring chain. It’s easy to fry an ADC input if you don’t understand what you’re doing—especially when measuring high-voltage power amps. I’ll recommend you also buy a cheap USB interface and a multimeter to “validate” you measurement chain, before doing any high-precision measurement.

Cheers!!!