[Slim1970]

I suppose it's true it's all relative... I covet the Klipsch HP-3 and even without having even heard them with my own years (yet!), I suspect I would prefer them over the R70x (and HD 600 for sure) for EDM, just based on what I've read about their sound signature from others ... I guess my point was that when I'm in "enjoy the music mood", any of my good headphones (and I count the R70x and HD 600 among them for sure) can really give me oodles of enjoyment for basically any music genre, including EDM, even if I might, were I to stop enjoying the music, conjure a thought that, "gee, this would be even more ridiculously fun on ___."

The R70x’s do render music fantastically. The same can be said about the HD600’s, but in a different way. I like the HD600’s more than the HD650’s, but I like the R70x’s better than both for music listening.

The HP-3’s would be a great progression from the R70x’s if you wanted to move up chain. They have similar tone, but the HP-3’s have much better build quality and sound more refined. They also sound bigger and give you more of what you like about the R70x’s. This could be partially due to the low impedance. The HP-3’s are easier to drive and sound good out of any portable device. The R70x’s do require some power, but I’m not finding them to hard to drive at all.

 

[descloud]

I been reading lot more reviews from professionals as well. One of the things I like they never spew any of the headphile garbage like treble sounds grainy and prattling on about how they can hear peaks precisely in the 10K region as if they aren't just staring at some graph, and experts on "neutral" sound as if they are experts in any way regarding sound.

I been liking them because it's much more practical in explaining why they bought the headphones for what purpose and how it has helped them and how it's improved their ability to do their work and how it compares to their monitors because speaker monitors are the benchmark for them, not by some headphone that costs $3000 because of, who the hell knows. Not sure if you guys just feel like vomiting when you hear a review like from Heapdhone Show who talks of timbre, graininess, detail retrieval, reponse graphs and on and on and I all I hear is, man you're so full of yourself.

Which professionals did you read on headphones about?

As someone having tried also many different headphones, I can attest to people describing sound signatures with words such as 'grainy treble', 'mid-bass focus than sub-bass', and certain descriptors because when I do certain side-by-side comparisons, I do notice those differences and those descriptors are similar to my experiences. So those help me in determining whether I'd like the sound or not and whether it's accurate or not.

For people describing peaks as if they hear them, more power to them as I am not equipped to be differentiating those peaks in the frequency response by ear. What I can only hear would be in the ball park of say male voices sound more upfront than female, or whether an acoustic guitar is represented closely (I play instruments myself). That is not to say that the people out there are just spitting BS, although there are a lot of mob mentality on this hobby, those people describing peaks in the frequency response graphs relative to what they hear are providing a good guideline of what the sound would be to me in response to the factual measurements they have at hand.

I think headphone fans need more reviewers like Zeos and Oluv, where we can get a sense of what the headphone is like just based on how expressive the reviewer is, rather than just in boring monotone voice reading off a script prattling on and on about some frequency graph and spewing nonsense jargon that mean nothing with definable definition as it differs from person to person. Yes Zeos makes his living with sales with his affiliate links and he's an entertainer but like Oluv you can tell when something hurts, something is pleasurable, and get a sense of what headphone excites him etc. I'd like to see more enjoyment of the headphones.

Zeos was at first someone I followed, but after hearing some of the headphones themselves in relation to how he describes them, he tends to exaggerate his descriptions IMO. He's very subjective and that's not overall a bad thing, but it does not provide me with a reference point as to what sound I would hear from the headphone and I only get what he feels at that moment. I don't find his comments useful when deciding on a purchase because we can like and dislike different sounds.

Oluv does provide more accurate sound demos so that's really useful for me. He then describes the sound in detail relative to how he sees the frequency response graphs and other headphones he has at hand, which is also helpful. He also has preferences and makes it known - which is also not a problem as this hobby is pretty subjective.

While this hobby is very subjective, having people who can provide a balance of reference reviews and their own subjective input is what I'd rather see than someone just giving overly positive comments such as 'it makes my job better' or 'I finally hear more details I've never heard before' and the praise and excitement doesn't stop there.

 

[dakanao]

Which professionals did you read on headphones about?

As someone having tried also many different headphones, I can attest to people describing sound signatures with words such as 'grainy treble', 'mid-bass focus than sub-bass', and certain descriptors because when I do certain side-by-side comparisons, I do notice those differences and those descriptors are similar to my experiences. So those help me in determining whether I'd like the sound or not and whether it's accurate or not.

For people describing peaks as if they hear them, more power to them as I am not equipped to be differentiating those peaks in the frequency response by ear. What I can only hear would be in the ball park of say male voices sound more upfront than female, or whether an acoustic guitar is represented closely (I play instruments myself). That is not to say that the people out there are just spitting BS, although there are a lot of mob mentality on this hobby, those people describing peaks in the frequency response graphs relative to what they hear are providing a good guideline of what the sound would be to me in response to the factual measurements they have at hand.



Zeos was at first someone I followed, but after hearing some of the headphones themselves in relation to how he describes them, he tends to exaggerate his descriptions IMO. He's very subjective and that's not overall a bad thing, but it does not provide me with a reference point as to what sound I would hear from the headphone and I only get what he feels at that moment. I don't find his comments useful when deciding on a purchase because we can like and dislike different sounds.

Oluv does provide more accurate sound demos so that's really useful for me. He then describes the sound in detail relative to how he sees the frequency response graphs and other headphones he has at hand, which is also helpful. He also has preferences and makes it known - which is also not a problem as this hobby is pretty subjective.

While this hobby is very subjective, having people who can provide a balance of reference reviews and their own subjective input is what I'd rather see than someone just giving overly positive comments such as 'it makes my job better' or 'I finally hear more details I've never heard before' and the praise and excitement doesn't stop there.

When I started this hobby, I obviously knew nothing about sound descriptions. I would even wonder what a ''warm'' and ''bright'' sound would mean, let alone a more obsecure term like ''grainy''

But as I started listening to more and more headphones, I started to understand these terms relative to what I was hearing. For example: the Hifiman HE-500 is exceptionally ''grain-free'', but they do have a bit too much upper treble emphasis, which can make them a bit fatiguing there.

The R70x (I used to own 2 pairs) had a very balanced frequency response, but there was a certain edgy quality with both pairs (again, a term that you would have to experience yourself) on the impact with some upper-midrange sounds, that didn't hit smoothly on the ears. It's that edginess people refer to as grain.

So it's a quality issue rather than frequency response issue. However, I had a Geek Out 450 USB amp back then that was a bit edgy sounding. But I also had the HD 650 at the same time along with the Geek Out and the R70x, and on an A-B comparison it was very clear that the HD 650 didn't have that edgy quality with the Geek Out.

Me and kman2111 notice that "grain" in the same way, so I find it surprising that he found the R70x to be actually smoother than the HD 650. Maybe the R70x is more revealing of amp/DAC quality than the HD 650?

I don't take Zeos's advice for anything, since he recommended some velour pads for the AD1000x that totally ruined the sound (made them way too harsh), and he didn't hear any difference between those and the stock pads.

 

[kman1211]

When I started this hobby, I obviously knew nothing about sound descriptions. I would even wonder what a ''warm'' and ''bright'' sound would mean, let alone a more obsecure term like ''grainy''

But as I started listening to more and more headphones, I started to understand these terms relative to what I was hearing. For example: the Hifiman HE-500 is exceptionally ''grain-free'', but they do have a bit too much upper treble emphasis, which can make them a bit fatiguing there.

The R70x (I used to own 2 pairs) had a very balanced frequency response, but there was a certain edgy quality with both pairs (again, a term that you would have to experience yourself) on the impact with some upper-midrange sounds, that didn't hit smoothly on the ears. It's that edginess people refer to as grain.

So it's a quality issue rather than frequency response issue. However, I had a Geek Out 450 USB amp back then that was a bit edgy sounding. But I also had the HD 650 at the same time along with the Geek Out and the R70x, and on an A-B comparison it was very clear that the HD 650 didn't have that edgy quality with the Geek Out.

Me and kman2111 notice that "grain" in the same way, so I find it surprising that he found the R70x to be actually smoother than the HD 650. Maybe the R70x is more revealing of amp/DAC quality than the HD 650?

I don't take Zeos's advice for anything, since he recommended some velour pads for the AD1000x that totally ruined the sound (made them way too harsh), and he didn't hear any difference between those and the stock pads.

I find that edge you're talking about disappears on a tube amp and a multibit dac, on some other dacs and amps there was some nastiness in the upper mids, a bit of an hard abrasive edge, it's like on the Amiron Home or T1.2 where the treble sharpness simply disappears on some systems. If I had my old system with the R70x I may of found it grainy and wouldn't of liked it as much. But honestly on my current system, I find the HD 650 more abrasive in the mids than the R70x and it seems to be something that creeps up on me, it's usually not apparent until I spend like 10-20 minutes on the HD 650 and I often want to take it off as it's grating my ears. I don't get that with the R70x, but neither are as effortless and easy on my ears as my T1.2 or Amiron Home, which can sound a bit sharp coming from the R70x or HD 650 but as you adjust it becomes a non-issue and fatigue isn't a problem with them.

 

[dakanao]

I find that edge you're talking about disappears on a tube amp and a multibit dac, on some other dacs and amps there was some nastiness in the upper mids, a bit of an hard abrasive edge, it's like on the Amiron Home or T1.2 where the treble sharpness simply disappears on some systems. If I had my old system with the R70x I may of found it grainy and wouldn't of liked it as much. But honestly on my current system, I find the HD 650 more abrasive in the mids than the R70x and it seems to be something that creeps up on me, it's usually not apparent until I spend like 10-20 minutes on the HD 650 and I often want to take it off as it's grating my ears. I don't get that with the R70x, but neither are as effortless and easy on my ears as my T1.2 or Amiron Home, which can sound a bit sharp coming from the R70x or HD 650 but as you adjust it becomes a non-issue and fatigue isn't a problem with them.

The HD 650's grain is actually very dependent on how you fit them. They're exceptionally smooth once you find the right fit, and are quite grating otherwise, even with the Chord Mojo.

The R70x when I had it, didn't really change soundwise with the fit, I guess due to the round earcups spreading the sound out more consistanly across your ears.

 

[kman1211]

The HD 650's grain is actually very dependent on how you fit them. They're exceptionally smooth once you find the right fit, and are quite grating otherwise, even with the Chord Mojo.

The R70x when I had it, didn't really change soundwise with the fit, I guess due to the round earcups spreading the sound out more consistanly across your ears.

Fit does make a difference and some systems the irritation is gone, but the main thing is I struggle to get myself to truly enjoy the HD 600 or HD 650 like I do with the R70x. I do think the HD 650 is honestly more resolving than the R70x though, but I haven't quite heard a pairing with the HD 650 that has gotten me fully engaged with the headphone.

 

[dakanao]

Fit does make a difference and some systems the irritation is gone, but the main thing is I struggle to get myself to truly enjoy the HD 600 or HD 650 like I do with the R70x. I do think the HD 650 is honestly more resolving than the R70x though, but I haven't quite heard a pairing with the HD 650 that has gotten me fully engaged with the headphone.

Is that maybe because the bass rolls-off too quick, and is rather weak in the mid-bass yet upper-bass focused?

 

[kman1211]

Is that maybe because the bass rolls-off too quick, and is rather weak in the mid-bass yet upper-bass focused?

Don't actually have any problems with the bass, don't really find the bass rolls off too quick actually and actually like the upper-bass focus. It's likely more related to transients, decay, and/or PRaT. The HD 660 S for instance is far more engaging than either the HD 600 or HD 650 to my ears.

 

[dakanao]

Don't actually have any problems with the bass, don't really find the bass rolls off too quick actually and actually like the upper-bass focus. It's likely more related to transients, decay, and/or PRaT. The HD 660 S for instance is far more engaging than either the HD 600 or HD 650 to my ears.

I understand what you mean, the dynamic range is not that punchy, it's rather flat.

For me, my current problem with them is that the bass is rather weak and soft once the clamp wears down on them. I have some Dekoni Velour pads that makes them more punchy in the bass similar to how they were new, but it introduces an additional upper-mids edge that I'm not found of.

 

[kman1211]

I understand what you mean, the dynamic range is not that punchy, it's rather flat.

For me, my current problem with them is that the bass is rather weak and soft once the clamp wears down on them. I have some Dekoni Velour pads that makes them more punchy in the bass similar to how they were new, but it introduces an additional upper-mids edge that I'm not found of.

I actually find the dynamic range and bass excursion quite good, they’re almost bass cannons and slam hard on my UDA-1 and still very dynamic on the Sunrise 3. It’s a little flatter on the Asgard 3 dynamically but still not lacking at all. It’s not quite as dynamic as Tesla Beyers but not that far off, I find it more dynamic than the R70x which I find a bit flatter sounding dynamically, but it’s possible the R70x wants more power as it actually sounds like it’s held back on my system. That’s why I’m confused I struggle to get fully engaged with the HD 650, I never found them lacking in dynamics or fidelity, maybe it’s a matter of finding just the right synergy that I haven’t quite found yet.

 

[SSandDigital]

Arrived. They are smaller than I expected, also lighter than I expected. By ears do fit in them, so they are not on-ear.

The sound is good so far, going to use these exclusively for a week. But sound very clear, almost want a 2nd pair now for the bedroom and the desktop, and just sell the HD58x. After a really fast listen feel these are HD58x with better bass extension and without that Senn veil.

I was cautious about the impedence, but interestingly the K712 are just as difficult to drive as these.

 

[SilverEars]

R70X bass response is likely to vary greatly based on amplification due to it's absurd impedance graph:

Hmmmm. I'm curious how these fair with tube amps. It would be interesting to try it out with BH Crack

 

[kman1211]

Hmmmm. I'm curious how these fair with tube amps. It would be interesting to try it out with BH Crack

With my experience with tubes on the R70x, they seem to transform like the HD 650 does with tubes and often seem middling on SS amps. On tubes they tend to sound clearer, cleaner, more body, smoother, less hard sounding, better imaging/soundstaging, etc. Wouldn't be surprised if they really like the BH Crack. They also like being fed power.

 

[llysender]

With my experience with tubes on the R70x, they seem to transform like the HD 650 does with tubes and often seem middling on SS amps. On tubes they tend to sound clearer, cleaner, more body, smoother, less hard sounding, better imaging/soundstaging, etc. Wouldn't be surprised if they really like the BH Crack. They also like being fed power.

Interesting, personally I prefer the R70X on SS amps, Tubes are a mix bag for me. The bass is fuller muddier, mids are pushed forward and hyper detailed, trebble is kind of smoothed even more but still retains the detail. Soundstage is increased at the expense of the imaging with is wider more planar like and not thight and precise. Then again I've only demoed it on the caryin HA-1A and now on the xduoo ta-02 so its pretty limited.

Just curous does BH crack really fix the HD600 hash mids and soundstage and imaging issues? Because on the fiio k5 pro it was a really disappointing experience.

 

[kman1211]

Interesting, personally I prefer the R70X on SS amps, Tubes are a mix bag for me. The bass is fuller muddier, mids are pushed forward and hyper detailed, trebble is kind of smoothed even more but still retains the detail. Soundstage is increased at the expense of the imaging with is wider more planar like and not thight and precise. Then again I've only demoed it on the caryin HA-1A and now on the xduoo ta-02 so its pretty limited.

Just curous does BH crack really fix the HD600 hash mids and soundstage and imaging issues? Because on the fiio k5 pro it was a really disappointing experience.

Haven’t heard either of those amps. My experience is mostly with the Project Sunrise and Horizon tube amp wise on the R70x. That sounds like different preferences on sound, what you described some people may greatly prefer.

It does mostly fix the mids on the HD 600/650. It helps the imaging and soundstaging but many headphones still outclass it there. I’m quite neutral about the Senns personally, it’s actually the mids that I don’t like not because of presence, I like how full and present they are but more because I find them hard, hashy, and a bit harsh sounding on most systems, I generally much prefer Beyer mids where they take a slight step back and even when eq’d or modded to be forward and full don’t have that hardness to them, a Beyer with forward and full mids is just a real treat imho and makes me wonder why Beyer doesn’t really do it more often. The Senns aren’t that great unless with good synergy imho and unless you hear them on something like a Crack or something better such as an Eddie Current amp you may not get why they are so hyped.