AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[astrostar59]

I'll start a new thread titled 'AOIP watch out - USB strikes back!'

Hmm, interesting if that is true. Looking at the techs it doesn't make sense a series of format changing devices would sound better than Ethernet straight through. There must be something else going on here? I can't comment as not heard this chain myself. But I am very happy with the Rednet solution, it beats my previous Offramp 5 and EVO chains.
 
There is something inherently wrong with USB audio, the noise in the connection, the power feed, the slowness of it, the packet sizes, the poor connection (loose USB ports are a pain), the shared USB bus on many Macs and PCs, it goes on. If there is a chain of wizard fixers that get it done, great. I think I will stay on AOIP. But I applaud the effort to max out any format or connection device.

 

[astrostar59]

  I've installed it as well.
 
And while I haven't run into any bugs yet, it still has a ways to go yet, ie. it's 'young'.
 
And no I haven't worried about anything above 24bit, since there isn't any, at least in my possession.
 
JJ

Is that on a Mac 10.9.5+ ? Does it sound any different? Does it follow the sample rate change of a preferred player? Sorry a few questions.

 

[Cornan]

I understand...and I do fully respect AOIP. However, I would also like to know what USB path you are comparing to? So for example what kind of USB "tweaks" did you end up with when you did the switch to AOIP?

I hate it when folks ask this but have you read through this entire thread?

Rob had the most tricked out USB chain ever and chronicled every minute step of his path to get there. Many of us have described our well conceived USB chains also.

Give it a spin or better yet buy an RN3 from Sweetwater. You can always return it.

I seriously believe that AOIP is the best kept "secret" in audio and is hiding in plain sight. It stuns me that it gets no attention on CA. I guess they are too busy jousting with each other?

I am sorry if I upset you or anyone else on this thread. Not my intension! I have followed this thread a long time but still have'nt read about anyone using what I call a great USB chain with 2-wire unshielded USB cables (ie. 3-wire cables with GND lift). It takes a long time to perfect USB audio and I guess that applies to AOyIP as well since so many "tweaks" are posted here. There have been a lot of break though In the USB audio. Latest one is the sc. leakage loop which quickly described require battery supplies or Ultracap supply for devices together with isolated ICs, isolated ethernet, limited AC connected devices, Isolation transformer with floating secondary and no filtered powerstrip to completely remove. Sounds amazing! I guess the Isolation transformer w/floating secondary would make great improvements upon AOIP as well.
Anyway, I am all for AOIP...but just as a replacement for Ethernet IMO.

 

[alubis]

If you read the thread carefully, you will find many here have tried various usb transports, add ons, tweaks etc. I posted several usb transports that I have tried and I have tried many usb tweaks, including ground lift with usb cables.

IMO, the problem with usb is not only power, but also the protocol itself. Usb protocol is generic for many purposes not just audio. AOIP is just for audio, hence you can't transmit video or anything else via AOIP. That's probably why it is sound superior compared to usb. Well, at least to my ears.

I am sorry if I upset you or anyone else on this thread. Not my intension! I have followed this thread a long time but still have'nt read about anyone using what I call a great USB chain with 2-wire unshielded USB cables (ie. 3-wire cables with GND lift). It takes a long time to perfect USB audio and I guess that applies to AOyIP as well since so many "tweaks" are posted here. There have been a lot of break though In the USB audio. Latest one is the sc. leakage loop which quickly described require battery supplies or Ultracap supply for devices together with isolated ICs, isolated ethernet, limited AC connected devices, Isolation transformer with floating secondary and no filtered powerstrip to completely remove. Sounds amazing! I guess the Isolation transformer w/floating secondary would make great improvements upon AOIP as well.
Anyway, I am all for AOIP...but just as a replacement for Ethernet IMO.

 

[mourip]

I'll start a new thread titled 'AOIP watch out - USB strikes back!'

 
Thanks.
 
It would make sense to start a new separate USB thread. Personally I would like to see the thread re-focus on AOIP prgress and not debate USB.
 
I guess this answers my question about how it is going with the Burl.

 

[robi20064]

Is anyone using external clock in an AOIP chain? If so, what solution?

 

[mourip]

Several folks here use an external clock. I am using an Antelope LiveClock to clock both my D16 and Mutec +3 USB to good result. The only downside is that it limits you to one rate unless you change it manually. I believe that is an issue when trying to enable sample rate following(SRF) which is now working well in the latest release of Rednet Control v2.
 
I would be interested in knowing if there is a reasonably priced clock that can be set to follow the rate set at the application level source. I have not worried too much about it however as I just set the rate to 192K all around and now I mainly obsess about what music to buy rather than the next tweak. I am probably fooling myself and am just catching my breath but at some point one needs to just enjoy the music even if one also finds the chase exciting.

 

[astrostar59]

I am sorry if I upset you or anyone else on this thread. Not my intension! I have followed this thread a long time but still have'nt read about anyone using what I call a great USB chain with 2-wire unshielded USB cables (ie. 3-wire cables with GND lift). It takes a long time to perfect USB audio and I guess that applies to AOyIP as well since so many "tweaks" are posted here. There have been a lot of break though In the USB audio. Latest one is the sc. leakage loop which quickly described require battery supplies or Ultracap supply for devices together with isolated ICs, isolated ethernet, limited AC connected devices, Isolation transformer with floating secondary and no filtered powerstrip to completely remove. Sounds amazing! I guess the Isolation transformer w/floating secondary would make great improvements upon AOIP as well.
Anyway, I am all for AOIP...but just as a replacement for Ethernet IMO.

Listen to it, then decide. Techno babble means not much, ears mean everything IMO. I had a decent chain with LPS on everything inc additional mains regenerator to supply my whole system. Rednet still cleaner, fluid, better.
 
IMO it isn't just the power / ground lift issue, USB data transfer has other (many) issues.

 

[rb2013]

   
lol
 
nope

Have you visited my listening room?  Who started this thread?  Who started the XU208 USB thread? 
 

 
Hmm, interesting if that is true. Looking at the techs it doesn't make sense a series of format changing devices would sound better than Ethernet straight through. There must be something else going on here? I can't comment as not heard this chain myself. But I am very happy with the Rednet solution, it beats my previous Offramp 5 and EVO chains.
 
There is something inherently wrong with USB audio, the noise in the connection, the power feed, the slowness of it, the packet sizes, the poor connection (loose USB ports are a pain), the shared USB bus on many Macs and PCs, it goes on. If there is a chain of wizard fixers that get it done, great. I think I will stay on AOIP. But I applaud the effort to max out any format or connection device.

I doubt there is anyone on this thread that has owned, lived with, tweeked both AOIP and USB chains to the degree I have.
 
What makes sense is immaterial - what sounds best is what counts!  I didn't think this new development would be popular here - but I'm and equal opportunity audiophile.  No hidden biases - just meticulous attention  to various configurations.  And I know what sounds best to me, and this ain't my first rodeo - of course YMMV.
 
I started this thread based on my perceived audio sound quality superiority of different forms of AOIP.  But as I stated many pages ago - the train does stop here - thank god!
 
What I heard yesterday has truly floored me - as did the Rednet RN3 did when I first heard it, and the subsequent improvements by adding the Mutec MC-3+ as SPDIF (later AES) reclocker, later the Antelope OXCO as Wclock, multiple Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power cables (another of my finds that became very popular), Oyaide BNC Wclock cables, etc...
 

   
Thanks.
 
It would make sense to start a new separate USB thread. Personally I would like to see the thread re-focus on AOIP prgress and not debate USB.
 
I guess this answers my question about how it is going with the Burl.

Yes I will start a new thread - especially since the XMOS XU208 F-1 was closed.
 
To my ears the BURL B2B with the Dante board (and LPS power) as superior to feeding it the RN3/Mutec/OXCO by AES.  Now this new USB chain feeding the BURL by SPDIF has surpassed the Dante built in SQ.  Better still this USB chain feeding the heavily modded R2R PCM1704 tube DAC60 is even better.  The BURL is nice as DAC but has a bit of a sterile quality.  The tonal density and richness of DAC60 coupled with this Ultra USB chain adds incredibly explosive dynamics (but macro and micro), and as hard as it was for me to believe, a whole new layer of detail revealed.  Additonally, the very subtle lower level ambient clues being divulged produces a sound stage of truly life like realism, and the great sound field immersion yet.  Spooky real sounds emerging from behind me, deep into the rear corners of my listening room.
 
The USB Ultra chain also has a delicacy and finesse that surpasses the best of AOIP.
 
I give the RN3/Mutec/OXCO combo the slight edge in ultimate bass depth, but the tremendous air and transparency increase with this Ultra USB chain more then makes up for that.  In the end it's the break taking 'slam', 'jump', 'energy' that bowled me over.  In fact it took me by surprise and a little while to adjust to.
 
But this exploration is not done yet...I believe more can be rung from this fruit...

 

[rb2013]

Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
 
Ultra USB chain (details to long to list)                                                                   320
BURL B2B DAC with DANTE Brooklyn II/ modded w/LPS power                                     285
REDNET 3/Cerious Graphene/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF)/Antelope OCX (RN wClock)             270
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable                                 250
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)/AS Sliver Statement dig cable          240
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                                220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                         155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Singxer F-1  Stock feed                                                                                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
 Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                             100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                   92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                            85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                         81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                   76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                  72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                     65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                     65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                        50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                        40
 
 

 

[PCWar]

I managed to open the Atterotech unDaes-o and am posting some photos of the internals for the interested. 
 

 

 

[astrostar59]

  Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
 
Ultra USB chain (details to long to list)                                                                   320
BURL B2B DAC with DANTE Brooklyn II/ modded w/LPS power                                     285
REDNET 3/Cerious Graphene/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF)/Antelope OCX (RN wClock)             270
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable                                 250
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)/AS Sliver Statement dig cable          240
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                                220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                         155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Singxer F-1  Stock feed                                                                                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
 Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                             100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                   92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                            85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                         81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                   76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                  72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                     65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                     65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                        50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                        40
 
 

I am wondering if there is some synergy or other thing going on? It would be good to try your 2 chains plugged into different DACs to know for sure IMO. No disrespect, but a higher end DAC  or different designed DAC may do different things or react differently. It may throw up a different presentation?
 
For example I don't do up sampling s I am on R-2R Redbook, so any gains / losses using HQPlayer is taken of the menu, so in my case it may be simpler to know what is going on?
 
In my DAC fed via SPDIF or AES I always noticed a 'slighty' lower level of detail in loosing my USB chain to AOIP. But on flicking back and forth it was a treble rasp or clinical edge that seemed like more detail. It was ultimately a false friend in my system. The AOIP has it all there, but it is smoother so a more cohesive part of the whole music, less hifi, more real. Maybe bit less impressive in a short demo but a keeper in the home, it just fits better and looses any fatigue or reminder it is digital.
 
Fascinating subject.

 

[rb2013]

 
I am wondering if there is some synergy or other thing going on? It would be good to try your 2 chains plugged into different DACs to know for sure IMO. No disrespect, but a higher end DAC  or different designed DAC may do different things or react differently. It may throw up a different presentation?
 
For example I don't do up sampling s I am on R-2R Redbook, so any gains / losses using HQPlayer is taken of the menu, so in my case it may be simpler to know what is going on?
 
In my DAC fed via SPDIF or AES I always noticed a 'slighty' lower level of detail in loosing my USB chain to AOIP. But on flicking back and forth it was a treble rasp or clinical edge that seemed like more detail. It was ultimately a false friend in my system. The AOIP has it all there, but it is smoother so a more cohesive part of the whole music, less hifi, more real. Maybe bit less impressive in a short demo but a keeper in the home, it just fits better and looses any fatigue or reminder it is digital.
 
Fascinating subject.

Well I have tried it with the $6500 APL NWOjr DAC - six 32-bit AKM D-S DACs per channel, Lunduhl transformer coupling, E99CC class A tube output, specially designed discrete SPDIF receiver, LPS, etc...
Note Srajan's direct comparison to the Zanden 5000 Mk II NOS (non-oversampling) DAC and preference for the APL http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html
 
And the amazing DAC60 using R2R PCM1704U-K top spec DAC's, independent Lite R-Core transformers (one for Digital and one for Analog), 6922 SRPP (similar your AN) true tube output stage (with the amazing Russian totl HG '75 silver NOS tubes), Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps, Hammond choke PS filter, upgraded Mundorf M'Lytic PS caps, Elna Simlic II and Nichicon Fine Gold PS caps, Mundorf solid silver wiring/teflon etc...
 
Beside the modded LPS BURL B2B DAC (which I have sold to my friend).
 
Right now the Ultra USB chain and the heavily modded DAC60 are my reference.
 
 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
 
I would put this DAC up against your Audio Note any day.  No disrespect - but I do remember debating you many pages ago about the superiority of the Rednet AOIP over your EVO stack.  See how that turned out...just sayn'
 
Having owned and tweeked my EVO many years ago,  I had little doubt the AOIP RN would 'crush it' - I believe  that was what I posted back a few months ago.  And you have not heard the Rednet with the Mutec MC-3+ USB as reclocker or with a OXCO Wclock - both giving the RN a better SQ.
 
This ultra USB is in a whole other orbit from the EVO US stack you had.  But it takes extreme measures to get there  - like three separate LPS's to start.  Not saying this path is for everyone - or anyone else for that matter.  Just reporting what I'm hearing, with the perspective of a very deep experience with both chains.
 
Not to knock AOIP or the Rednet gear - it is great.  As I have said many times before in my 5706 posts on Headfi.  Just because something else comes along that someone else prefers, doesn't instantaneously make what you have sound worse.  The good news is the level of SQ achievable from computer audio has not hit it's limit.
 
If I have one comment regarding this ProAudio gear (Rednet, Mutec, Antelope) is get rid of those awful SMPS's.

 

[rb2013]

One additional note - the RN3, Mutec and Antelope all were connected by expensive Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power chords - as well as the DAC.  The three on the AOIP were sold.  I'm using three generic Silver/Niobium plug power chords on the three LPS's.  These excellent, but relatively expensive power cords would give the AOIP chain a leg up.
 
BTW if anybody is looking for a killer great, low cost LPS - with enough current to power a music server.  Check out the MEIYAN LPS.
 
More info over on my LPS thread - see my last few posts and the bottom of the 1st page:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/822160/audio-power-supplies-part3-smps-lps-supercap-battery-diy-route-new-devices-opens-up-new-options

 

[astrostar59]

   
I would put this DAC up against your Audio Note any day.  No disrespect - but I do remember debating you many pages ago about the superiority of the Rednet AOIP over your EVO stack.  See how that turned out...just sayn'
 

Yes debating USB v AOIP, and I said I would cast my opinion when I heard it. You haven't heard the Audio Note DAC 5. Rather comparing 'similar' design topologies and saying it will sound the same. I haven't heard the Zanden model you quote, but have friends who have Zanden and they say it does sound different to most Audio Note units. I don't cast my vote on that until I hear one.
 
Your DAC v AN DAC 5. Hmm, that is difficult to quantify. I can't find any reliable comparisons between the Zanden and my Audio Note DAC 5 Special. And your DAC obviously. The Audio Note has very expensive output transformers and a lot of work gone into the analogue filtering (no digital filter). That and Peter's I/V secrets, quality power supply with 2 x oversized mains transformers, big backgate caps, SHUNT power supply for the digital board. I am not saying your DAC project is no good. I am saying unless they are pitched together it is impossible to quantify.
 
I have owned 4 AN DACs of various levels and some had mods applied.
 
My DAC retails at over £25K, I bought used for a lot less. I also upgraded the output transformers to Signature level.
 
My own comparisons with the AN DAC 5 were C1 CH Precision, MSB Platinum Stack, Meridian 808, Naim CD555, Esoteric K-01, Lampizator Big 6, AMR DP-777. It beat all of those squarely, more real sounding with zero fatigue. The Lampi was the best IMO of those comparison DACs, the AMR a close third.