AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[JayNYC]

   
Someone on CA who mostly does Pro Audio bought one. He liked the convenience but found the SQ short of audiophile. 

that person was me -- what I posted
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/focusrite-rednet-28878/index3.html#post553441
 
I asked Focusrite yesterday, as of yesterday, which Rednet devices used JetPLL and they told me every Rednet device except the AM2.

 

[joelha]

  For setting 176Khz use the Dante Controller SW and not the RedNet Control SW. For some reason (at least in my set-up), the RedNet Control SW is missing 176Khz. However, I just went to JRMC and was able to upsample to 176Khz without any problems.
 
 

You're a good man, gldgate.
 
Thanks a lot for the information.
 
Joel

 

[rb2013]

   
 
There are no EMI/RF issues with long runs of Cat6, it is inherently designed to reject interference.  

Yes the inherent communication protocol - total absence of a analog like wave form - or should I say 'signal intregrity' issues that require AGC schemes.  You should be right  - but then why do STP ethernet cables exist at all?  As you are in the tech field maybe can help understand a little about this.
 

In theory. But we all know it was never specifically designed for audio. In theory, the fiber converters shouldn't help either. I don't really think there's any reason to even desire copper anymore these days. Fiber is pretty much the same price anyways. Sure a bit more for the switches, but still the TPlink switch with dual SFP ports is still only $100. You need a switch anyways, and even copper only of the same league will be within $30-40. So are we really breaking the bank with fiber? For me personally, even if it only even sounded equal, would use it for the coolness factor alone

One major attraction of AOIP was the doing away with all the USB gizmos and gadgets.  So not super keen on adding more to the AOIP chain - but if it does improve the SQ well by all means.   Coolness can mean snake oil to some folks:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111931217341?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
Will know Friday on the effect of optical ethernet on the SQ in my systems.!

 

[rb2013]

  @Soundsgoodtome and @Muziqboy, thank you for bringing your Rednets to the Bellingham meetup. Kudos to you guys for spreading the word among the audiophile community about this remarkable discovery from the world of pro audio equipment.
 
Some background: I know a lot of people love the Bifrost Uber/Asgard 2 combo, but for me it's been pretty disappointing. For some reason it sounds harsh and fatiguing to my ears, especially after a few hours of listening.
 
Now I've switched to an NFB-10 and have plans to sell the Schiit stack, but here's the kicker: I plugged the Uber/Asgard 2 into the Rednet 3 and nearly leapt out of my chair with amazement. The sound was completely transformed. Suddenly the wobbly harshness I'd been hearing was completely scrubbed out, and in its place I heard an effortless authority in the signal. Instead of making me feel a bit on edge, the sound was beautiful and engaging.
 
I would have loved to hear my NFB-10 through the Rednet, but unfortunately we discovered a problem with my coaxial input (which I've never tried using before).
 
These are just my impressions based on a few minutes of listening, but I was pretty surprised to discover that a better transport from the computer to the DAC could make such a big difference. Previously I had always assumed that a decent DAC could effortlessly handle whatever USB signal you fed it. Now I feel motivated to devote more attention to this part of my signal chain and confirm what I experienced on Saturday.
 
I noticed someone's comment about the Rednet AM2, which seems like an intriguing option for those of us with limited space and/or a tight budget. Has anyone been able to find a review?

The AM2 is not the path you want to go - for a couple of reasons, that have been covered here and my other XU208 thread.  The AM does not use the Dante Brooklyn or Brooklyn II cards like the REDNET 3 & D16 respectively.  It uses the Ultimo Dante Chip - and is limited to 96k.  Additionally the AM has no digital out - just analog.
 
So for $400 not a great deal - unless you want or need a portable (kinda) HP amp.  But a Red Dragonfly would be cheaper and likely a better solution, certainly smaller.
 
I share you impression on the RN gear - just a sea change in computer audio.  Although some have reported it equaled their USB chain - so as always YMMV.  I did notice in my office system the differences were not as apparent as in my more resolving main system.
 
Be patient - as I firmly believe we have iginited  a movement from USB to AOIP in the high audio world - and will see many more, less expensive devices coming down the road.
 
Cheers!
 
Here is the Utlimo Chip used in the AM:

 
Here is the Dante Brooklyn I card used in the RN3:

 

[Kelowna]

Yes the inherent communication protocol - total absence of a analog like wave form - or should I say 'signal intregrity' issues that require AGC schemes.  You should be right  - but then why do STP ethernet cables exist at all?  As you are in the tech field maybe can help understand a little about this.

One major attraction of AOIP was the doing away with all the USB gizmos and gadgets.  So not super keen on adding more to the AOIP chain - but if it does improve the SQ well by all means.   Coolness can mean snake oil to some folks:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111931217341?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Will know Friday on the effect of optical ethernet on the SQ in my systems.!

What I meant is simply going all fiber is close to the same price anyways. You need gizmos like switches and routers for copper Ethernet as well. So if you had one of the inexpensive switches with SFP ports already, with the Rednet all you would need to add for gizmo's is a single FMC box. In my case the streamer I use has a fiber input, so it's a real clean setup with no additional boxes required in the system. Just need an inexpensive switch with SFP port. This adds about $20-30 to the cost of a switch without one.

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

Great info on the am2, a few members were waiting word on it.

 

[occamsrazor]

In my case the streamer I use has a fiber input, so it's a real clean setup with no additional boxes required in the system.

 
Out of interest what streamer is this that has a fiber input? Thanks.

 

[rb2013]

  So I'm at 60hrs on my RN3 and the SQ has taken a significant step up.
It's still changing and I have very little idea of how much time it will take to reach its full peak and remain there.
 
The difference between my 2-Wyrd setup and the RN3 is increasing, but at this time it isn't a knock you over the head huge difference but the gap is widening.
 
And I ordered enough stuff to make 2) 2 channel AES breakout cables.
 
And that ether-optical-ether GI setup is in my sights as well.
I do have a question about it…
We should use 2 of the MC210CS units and not use a MC110CS with a 210CS (as suggested by Amazon…), right?
 
Interesting Times In Audio Indeed!
 
JJ

Mine evened out around 150 hours. 
 
Important note:  With some experimentation I found different SPDIF (and I guess AES) have made a significant different in SQ.  I kinda lucked out with starting with the Audio Sensiblity Silver Statement 1.5M.  Using a couple of other cables really robbed the vibrancy and energy of the sound.  It was like the music was happening in slow motion too.
 
I have added the Mutec MC-3+ USB as a reclocker - and that is a significant improvement.  But maybe the digital is more so.
 
I'll be trying a few more top end digital cables once the optical ethernet gear arrives to try.  I have 4-5 CAT6 and 5e cables around including the BJC CAT6 550Mhz UTP - they seem to make little difference.  Which was not the case with the Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB extender.
 
Also try 24bit vs 32bit - they sound slightly different in my main system - the 24bit a bit more zesty, the 32 bit a bit more smoother.  Right now using the 24 bit as the move of the totl Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme Red power cord from the RN3 to the Mutec - really improved the smoothness further.  And added greater depth to an already cavernous sound stage.
 
BTW you do that in the DVS under options and Dante Controller, click on the PC (mine is called 'Desktop')bar, then set the bit rate under Device Config.  Set them the same.

 

[Kelowna]

Out of interest what streamer is this that has a fiber input? Thanks.

You will have to google it. I really have to watch what I say or else threads get locked.

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

For these TP Link fiber optic senders, are ipowers the go-to or would a decent linear power supply be better? The linear power supply has enough power and outputs to power both transmitter and receiver, would it noisy the receiver to power the transmitter with the lps as well?

 

[rb2013]

Great info on the am2, a few members were waiting word on it.

It is apples vs oranges to the RN 3 & D16.  Note the very high quality clocks and the use of JetPLL tech by FR in the RN gear - I don't believe the AM has either.
 
As always it's about implementation.

Sonic Excellence – Advanced A-D/D-A conversion, premium multi-layered board circuitry and rock steady JetPLL™clocking delivers extremely clean, transparent audio at a dynamic range of 119dB with 24-bit resolution at sample rates up to 192kHz. 

 
More on JetPLL:
http://www.tctechnologies.tc/index.php/products/jetpll
 
http://www.tctechnologies.tc/downloads/jetpll_aes_paper.pdf

 

[rb2013]

 
that person was me -- what I posted
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/focusrite-rednet-28878/index3.html#post553441
 
I asked Focusrite yesterday, as of yesterday, which Rednet devices used JetPLL and they told me every Rednet device except the AM2.

Thanks for confirming that - the clocking in not a good as well.  Those Audinate Dante Brooklyn cards are not cheap.

 

[rb2013]

I'll put together a simple Rednet install step by step for us direct connection folks.
 
I see some folks having a little fustration in getting the RN gear up and running.  I think we are all so used to USB driver installs (at least us WIN guys) this is a bit different.  Some ways much easier, in another a bit confusing.
 
I laugh when I think back at getting the half a dozen different XMOS USB devices working in my systems.  Some Thesycon drivers worked others didn't, some USB DDC's needed to 'see' a +5VDC on the USB data line (like the Gustard U12) - others didn't (Breeze Audio), some needed to have a device id in the driver for install (most), others didn't (one more thing I loved about the Breeze DU-U8).  I have 6 different Thesycon drivers with different builds.  Some would work with another DDC, some wouldn't.  Sometimes the USB DDC had to powered up and down to get the install, sometimes not, on and on it went.
 
With my REDNET install it was 10 min deal.  I would recommend getting the DVS installed and licensed before installing RN Controller.  I also had firmware 3.4.1 and did not do the firmware update initially.  With it updated I could not detect any SQ change or functionality change.  So that's your call.

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

^ it seems the most stumping part of setup comes when you need to update a unit prior to use, otherwise it's straight forward with reading of the manual.

 

[rb2013]

^ it seems the most stumping part of setup comes when you need to update a unit prior to use, otherwise it's straight forward with reading of the manual.

+1 That's why I think it might be better to just get it working with the shipped firmware.
 
You had an issue with an older WIN machine not getting 192k only 96k on your RN3 right?  It was a 7 yr old Dell laptop I think.
 
So maybe a warning to folks with older machines that might be an issue.
 
Also with the DVS being s/w based the SQ may not be as good as on a more powerful new machine.   Mine is a Haswell iCore 7 4790, WIN10.