AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[Superdad]

You still have a couple months left yet to sell your USB based trinkets.

 
LOL Mike.  You really think a majority of the computer audio market is going to abandon USB in a few months time?  Keep dreaming… 

 
And on the AES67/Ravenna front, please tell where the DAC makers are going to get their multi-platform virtual sound card s/w from and who is going to maintain it.  Merging is not giving away their OS X and Windows s/w for use on other AES67/Ravenna implementations, and the Windows Ravenna Virtual Soundcard s/w ALC NetworX is giving away is crap.
 
As I have been saying all along:
It is about s/w as much as h/w.  Until audio over Ethernet s/w is built into the OS, or someone gives it all away and maintains it with every OS update, the barrier to entry for most DAC manufacturers in the high end will remain too high for them to pursue.  I keep hoping that Coveloz will step up and offer something attractive (i.e. including s/w) to OEMs with their BACH-minuet module.
 
But I am with you about Dante being a dead end--both technologically and business-wise.  I sincerely doubt that any high-end audio company is going to adopt their dusty modules for a new product.  Sorry Rob.

 

[Kelowna]

   
LOL Mike.  You really think a majority of the computer audio market is going to abandon USB in a few months time?  Keep dreaming… 

 
And on the AES67/Ravenna front, please tell where the DAC makers are going to get their multi-platform virtual sound card s/w from and who is going to maintain it.  Merging is not giving away their OS X and Windows s/w for use on other AES67/Ravenna implementations, and the Windows Ravenna Virtual Soundcard s/w ALC NetworX is giving away is crap.
 
As I have been saying all along:
It is about s/w as much as h/w.  Until audio over Ethernet s/w is built into the OS, or someone gives it all away and maintains it with every OS update, the barrier to entry for most DAC manufacturers in the high end will remain too high for them to pursue.  I keep hoping that Coveloz will step up and offer something attractive (i.e. including s/w) to OEMs with their BACH-minuet module.
 
But I am with you about Dante being a dead end--both technologically and business-wise.  I sincerely doubt that any high-end audio company is going to adopt their dusty modules for a new product.  Sorry Rob.

 
 
No you will be alright. Your followers will follow you no matter if there's better options available or not.
 
As far as the answer to the rest, if you knew it, you would have likely already dropped USB

 

[Superdad]

  Now Alex let's be nice here.  I'm trying to be a more open minded participant on these threads.
 
I appreciate @Kelowa's kind, patient, and positive attitude and great information.  Not just a naysayer

.
 
One who lives in a vaporware glass house should not throw stones - right?

 
That's pretty funny, but since you clearly are not familiar with my history with Mike (aka Blizzard) and his escapades elsewhere, I'll cut you some slack.  
And the truth is, I'm happy to debate him (or anyone else) with real facts, but his vile attacks on me over the past year make that a bit difficult.  The worst of it was deleted from the threads at WBF and CA, but here is a mild sample remainder:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/regen-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-vs-i2s-direct-25653/index14.html#post462582

 

[Kelowna]

That's pretty funny, but since you clearly are not familiar with my history with Mike (aka Blizzard) and his escapades elsewhere, I'll cut you some slack.  
And the truth is, I'm happy to debate him (or anyone else) with real facts, but his vile attacks on me over the past year make that a bit difficult.  The worst of it was deleted from the threads at WBF and CA, but here is a mild sample remainder:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/regen-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-vs-i2s-direct-25653/index14.html#post462582

Nice attempt at slander but the truth was the other way around. I was talking about Ravenna and I2S being superior to USB, and you were following me around lying to and misleading everyone because you were worried the education I was providing would shatter your future plans. It seems clear this is already starting to happen again over here.

That one post where I finally got fed up you decide to share. When you had the admin who you have in your back pocket delete all of the slander and foul language you directed at me.

Another great resource here guys:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/i2s-vs-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-25467/

 

[Superdad]

Nice attempt at slander but the truth was the other way around. I was talking about Ravenna and I2S being superior to USB, and you were following me around lying to and misleading everyone because you were worried the education I was providing would shatter your future plans. It seems clear this is already starting to happen again over here.

That one post where I finally got fed up you decide to share. When you had the admin who you have in your back pocket delete all of the slander and foul language you directed at me.

 
I never had anything to do with any deletions Mike.  Never flagged a single post or made any requests of the sort.  You were toxic enough to get yourself banned from multiple forums--include WBF where you had your own sub-forum for a while.  How did you manage THAT?!  I was not even hanging over there to watch you implode.  I miss all the fun.
 
And for the record, I have been playing around with, investigating, and discussing audio over Ethernet for years before you even knew such existed.  Remember, it is in the public record on the forums that you waltzed in and declared SD card playback on your Resonessence Labs the unbeatable, be-all end-all form of playback, and we schooled you on how it all really works and introduced you to HQ Player.  Like Rob, your enthusiasm carries you away (a good thing), and then you quickly turn around and proselytize as if you know it all and are going to show us the way.  Unlike Rob, who is generally very gracious and also open to learning--plus he buys a lot of things and actually tries them--you are rather thin skinned and quick to show a nasty side and insult people who don't agree with you.
 
I am sure this all seems out-of-left-field for any others reading this.  But as I've said, Blizzard and I (and a bunch of other kind and thoughtful folks) have a history, and it ain't pretty.  Plus he has a tendency t make crap up.  So I advise taking what he says with a grain (or boulder) of salt.  Like I said, it is most all in the public record.  Maybe he wants to be a new man under the moniker of Kelowna.  I'll try hard to withhold judgement about Kelowna...

 

[Kelowna]

Okay your entourage of loyal fanboys flagged them. As far as WBF, if you were unaware there was a meltdown between the 2 owners and as a repercussion my section got wiped out in the battle.  
As far as the Resonessence Mirus SD card goes, it's still my reference for low noise low jitter transport. But the drawback is the form factor and GUI. Ravenna gets you the same level of jitter and noise, while being able to take advantage of great audio players such as Roon.
 
Anyways this is an audio over IP thread. You have clearly came on here for 1 purpose. To trash Audio over IP. The clear reason being, you don't sell products that use it. So you are slandering both me and competitors products which is a clear violation of the TOS over here.
 
Nobody cares about our history from a year ago. They come on this thread to learn about Audio over IP. Something you will never be honest about. If you want, post links to every thread I've posted in. I have nothing to be ashamed of or hide.
 
Clear TOS violation:
 
"But I am with you about Dante being a dead end--both technologically and business-wise.  I sincerely doubt that any high-end audio company is going to adopt their dusty modules for a new product"
 
 

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[gldgate]

Just want to pop in and thank Rob for starting this thread. While I am a new poster on this forum I've been following Rob's threads for a while. While I don't always agree with his assessments I really appreciate his enthusiasm and research. I also appreciate that he is putting his $ where his mouth is and not just speculating or theorizing. He actually tries stuff before making an opinion. Anyway, as a fellow traveler on this crazy audio highway I appreciate the efforts. And yes, a D16 is on the way so I will chime in with my $.02 as well.

 

[rb2013]

On the wish list....

6. You don't mention inputs/outputs:

Input: Ideally I'd have an SFP slot that comes with copper Ethernet module (cheap) big could be swapped for an optical module if the user wanted. All this stuff is off the shelf so shouldn't be hard, but I wouldn't make it a priority.

Outputs: AES, SPDIF, Toslink, @ 192khz
i2s if possible but certainly required for the higher rates. Not sure if hdmi/rj45 plug is better am sure others will know.

... And here's a bizarre thought... Would it make sense to have a USB output as well? I know the point is to get rid of it, but the device would still have separation from the main noisy computer in the same way as the uRendu, and it would enable higher data rates and a lot of compatibility. But hey... Just a. Thought and certainly not a priority!

Thanks- Yes input and output options very important:
 
So I'll put that at number 3: Input Ethernet (Dante) Output: SPDIF coax and AES - SPDIF optical as an option and USB (wow that would be cool!) as another.
 
Sample rates: 44.1K, 48k, 88.2K, 96k, 176.4K, 192K (and higher and DSD is possible but not required).
 
Thanks!~

 

[rb2013]

   
LOL Mike.  You really think a majority of the computer audio market is going to abandon USB in a few months time?  Keep dreaming… 

 
And on the AES67/Ravenna front, please tell where the DAC makers are going to get their multi-platform virtual sound card s/w from and who is going to maintain it.  Merging is not giving away their OS X and Windows s/w for use on other AES67/Ravenna implementations, and the Windows Ravenna Virtual Soundcard s/w ALC NetworX is giving away is crap.
 
As I have been saying all along:
It is about s/w as much as h/w.  Until audio over Ethernet s/w is built into the OS, or someone gives it all away and maintains it with every OS update, the barrier to entry for most DAC manufacturers in the high end will remain too high for them to pursue.  I keep hoping that Coveloz will step up and offer something attractive (i.e. including s/w) to OEMs with their BACH-minuet module.
 
But I am with you about Dante being a dead end--both technologically and business-wise.  I sincerely doubt that any high-end audio company is going to adopt their dusty modules for a new product.  Sorry Rob.

Well we have Focusrite's attention right now and from what I'm hearing on a WIN10 Haswell iCore 7 - using DVS pretty amazing.  Now for $22 permanent Dante DVS license (on sale) so maybe $29 reg.  Pretty reasonable for sure.
 
Focusrite already has the programming done on their Dante Controller s/w - all they need to do is make a scaled down REDNET 16 - with no inputs - just 2 channel output on SPDIF and AES - with the Brooklyn II card (that BURL will sell anyone for $250 retail).  DC powered with a SMPS for cheap on the PS side.
 
It has got to be doable for under $200 - retail $500 a very nice profit margin.
 
We shall see - but at a min we have the RN3 and RD16d here and now - buy today delivered next week (that is if the order backlog doesn't get longer - then a wait list).

 

[rb2013]

   
That's pretty funny, but since you clearly are not familiar with my history with Mike (aka Blizzard) and his escapades elsewhere, I'll cut you some slack.  
And the truth is, I'm happy to debate him (or anyone else) with real facts, but his vile attacks on me over the past year make that a bit difficult.  The worst of it was deleted from the threads at WBF and CA, but here is a mild sample remainder:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/regen-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-vs-i2s-direct-25653/index14.html#post462582

Well I'm not one to critize others passionate posts - I've been there.  And it is good they get deleted.
 
I want to say I appreciate both of you providing your deeper insights here.
 
Alex you see how many of yours and John's posts I repost here - I am a bit dumbfounded at your seeming reversal from back a few years ago.
 
From what you posted on that CA thread - you and Miska where really spot on.  And it seems he used some of this AOIP technology in his NAA/HQ Player.
 
I hope you guys at Uptone are still working on your AOIP solution ( as back then you mentioned you thought Dante (pre-AES67) was to complicated a solution).
 
But the design ideals of open to any player, GB LAN capable, IP based, all seem to be here now.  Yet you handily reject them.
 
Maybe the feedback on the microRendu/Mutec MC-3+ USB (as USB DDC) combination is better then the AOIP REDNET 3 or 16/Mutec MC-3+ USB (as SPDIF reclocker).
 
But that would surprise me, I guess a few folks are going to give it a try.
 
Worse case well all get to buy discounted returned RN16d open boxes. 

 

[Superdad]

  Well we have Focusrite's attention right now and from what I'm hearing on a WIN10 Haswell iCore 7 - using DVS pretty amazing.  Now for $22 permanent Dante DVS license (on sale) so maybe $29 reg.  Pretty reasonable for sure.
 

 
Well as long as you have their attention, why not ask them for an I2S (over LVDS) output as that is vastly easier and ultimately better sounding than S/PDIF (I am sure my best friend Kelowna will agree).  And 384Khz plus support for DSD are both required if Dante/Focusrite are to have relevance.  I am able to do both with the MicroRendu in my system now. 

 

[Kelowna]

The problem with making a great AOIP solution is it takes big bucks to do it right. I'm talking about over $500K if you seriously want a solution from start to finish to work like clockwork. The Lead FPGA engineer over at Coveloz lives down the road from me. His son goes to the same preschool as my daughter. When he told me the bill for just the FPGA programming he did for them my jaw dropped. This is the reason Alex doesn't have a solution. But just because you can't afford it, doesn't mean you should bash it.

 

[rb2013]

  Just want to pop in and thank Rob for starting this thread. While I am a new poster on this forum I've been following Rob's threads for a while. While I don't always agree with his assessments I really appreciate his enthusiasm and research. I also appreciate that he is putting his $ where his mouth is and not just speculating or theorizing. He actually tries stuff before making an opinion. Anyway, as a fellow traveler on this crazy audio highway I appreciate the efforts. And yes, a D16 is on the way so I will chime in with my $.02 as well.

Thanks!  Looking forward to your take on what is shaping up to be the GREAT computer audio show down!  And if you have read my 17 tube shootout review - you know how I love shootouts!
 
In the left corner the Sonore MicroRendu/Mutec MC-3+ USB (as USB) in the right corner the Focusrite REDNET 16d/Mutec MC-3+ USB (as SPDIF reclocker)!~

 
If you've read my threads you'll know I do have a liking for a bit of drama!
 
And a good heated (but thoughtful and factual) debate - not only do I learn from these (and why I do love going back into 2013, 2014, 2015, etc.. to find great posts anywhere).  This year has been an amazing audio journey and learning curve.  I have to be very honest - as experienced at this as I am and the time I have spent reading and researching the whole
Roon/RAAT/Rendu/DNLA/UPNP/NAA/HQPLAYER complex has me totally confused.
 
I just can't keep up on who works with who or what and why!
 
I think  - but I have heard conflicting info (and been accused myself of passing bad info) that the microRendu can use any player like Foobar - but then on Sonore's website it doesn't mention it???

 
Same for Roon/RAAT working with any USB DDC?

 
Or why does the totl and very impressive Sonore Rendu Signature not work with Roon, or RAAT or Roon/RAAT? Even thought it does DNLA/UPNP??  But then maybe it does - but Sonore doesn't list it.
 
And my confusion just goes on and on.  Like HQPlayer working with and USB DDC?  It an enigma wrapped in a mystery for me.
 
Cheers!

 

[Superdad]

  But the design ideals of open to any player, GB LAN capable, IP based, all seem to be here now.  Yet you handily reject them.
 

 
Actually, I am a proponent of Ethernet audio.  Please refer to my detailed assessment, made "from a manufacturer's perspective" about some of the impediments to broad adoption.  http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2025#post_12617288  And those are things that I have discussed with other, very real and well known DAC makers.
 
Anyway, I really would like to see Ethernet DACs take off.  (And when I do a DAC with Swenson, you can bet it will have interfaces other than USB!)  If I anti-somthing--and very much so--it is S/PDIF! 

 

[rb2013]

   
Well as long as you have their attention, why not ask them for an I2S (over LVDS) output as that is vastly easier and ultimately better sounding than S/PDIF (I am sure my best friend Kelowna will agree).  And 384Khz plus support for DSD are both required if Dante/Focusrite are to have relevance.  I am able to do both with the MicroRendu in my system now. 

Well yes that would be optional - and you know that you and I (and maybe Chord and few other top DAC manuf) disagree heartily on SPDIF and AES.  For me and it appears a few other top DAC designers - while not optimal - it, when well implemented is perfectly capable of top audio performance.
 
Since 99.9% of my 3200 albums - are mostly Redbook, but many 32/176k digitalized LPs and SACD's (maybe 500-600) the need for 384k, DxD, DSD, i2s is well not a huge priority.  Not saying not nice to have - but totally unessential.  Great if your microRendu can do that - so can the $450 3 yr old Gustard X12.  Big deal.  Not my listening cup of tea.
 
 
I'll just leave you this quote about this SR/DSD arms race silliness - from one of my favorite audio reviewers  Srajan at 6Moons:
 

Buzz-word compliance

is its de rigueur mortis and mega pixel count. It preys on misinformed consumers who shop by the numbers. Hence by mid 2014, AMR's iFi division had gone positively purple with glee to announce 768kHz PCM and DSD

octa compliance

. By then DSD256 whose very first commercial files had just begun to appear was already passé. DSD512 was the new 'in' to remind us that all life is cyclical. It spirals out of control. Then it collapses and begins anew. On cyclical, in the crusades Christianity had its holy wars. Today it's the turn of Islam. In hifi the former were the THD and IMD wars. The latter's present equivalents target digital sample rates. Faced by such accelerating madness, Aqua pray for all-out peace. Their

assalaamu a'laikum

or

pax vobiscum

is refusal to participate. Opt out. Say no to DSD and anything above 24/192. How refreshing. If John Darko's assessment had it right, this decision was far from counter-productive. Quite possibly it was the crucial enabler. Obviously neither Metrum's Hex nor Aqua's La Voce had upsampled, quadrupled or DSD'd. Yet on those I was sold already from close familiarity. Time out then from the digital hamster mill which would turn us into

octagenarians

well before our time. Mind, I'm not singling out iFi. They were simply first to hit those particular numbers. More will undoubtedly follow. That's the whole mechanism of fashion. It's a lemming brigade. 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html