AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[goodvibes]

UPnP protocol is transfering files to a player, which needs to playback the file format.
AOIP is a realtime transfer of audio samples (like VOIP) which does not require a player at the receiving end.

I think not needing playback at the receiver, makes the receiver a lot less noisy.

UPNP transfers unpacked files and supplies a digital steam. It's not just transferring file packets. Yes, the renderer needs to play the format but it's more than a file transfer.  
 
With rednet (as I understand it) the clock(ing) is often still far from the DAC. I appreciate the JET jitter reducing clock recovery as I feel it was the best PC transfer method via firewire and better than anything I've come across USB but I still prefer UPNP protocols for this. Noise should be similar for both but I prefer clocking as close to the DAC as possible. 
 
Don't get me wrong, it will be great for some pro uses but I don't see a qualitative advantage for home users.

 

[jabbr]

  UPNP transfers unpacked files and supplies a digital steam. It's not just transferring file packets. Yes, the renderer needs to play the format but it's more than a file transfer.  
 
With rednet (as I understand it) the clock(ing) is often still far from the DAC. I appreciate the JET jitter reducing clock recovery as I feel it was the best PC transfer method via firewire and better than anything I've come across USB but I still prefer UPNP protocols for this. Noise should be similar for both but I prefer clocking as close to the DAC as possible. 
 
Don't get me wrong, it will be great for some pro uses but I don't see a qualitative advantage for home users.

 
UPnP still uses only file transfer albeit packaged, not realtime audio distribution.
The clock is network wide synchronised so also at the receiving Dante device, which normally acts as master clock
 
 
But you will only know when you listen, .... and than you will experience there is no comparison.
Don't think we're a bunch of noobs here
 
This pro-gear is way beyond all the consumer usb and UPnp stuff.

 

[Tboooe]

Hi guys...noob question here (please take it easy on me).
 
Is HQPlayer's NAA similar to AOIP?  It seems from my admittedly naive position that HQPlayer on a server PC sending music to another PC running the NAA over my network is some sort of audio over IP right?  I would really appreciate a more technical explanation of how HQPlayer's NAA is different from AOIP.
 
Thank you!

 

[goodvibes]

   
UPnP still uses only file transfer albeit packaged, not realtime audio distribution.
The clock is network wide synchronised so also at the receiving Dante device, which normally acts as master clock
 
 
But you will only know when you listen, .... and than you will experience there is no comparison.
Don't think we're a bunch of noobs here
 
This pro-gear is way beyond all the consumer usb and UPnp stuff.

You can't get top performance by spreading a clock that way but my definition of 'top' and another's will vary. I'm familiar with both Pro and consumer and strongly disagree about the playback end when discussing the best of both. Recording is another matter. When the computer audio consensus was that Itunes via a USB DAC was 'perfect', I listened to dig files using a pro TC Konnekt firewire interface (makers of JET) with a custom linear supply via Wavelab as player. This, dig out instead of the Konnekt's dac into a Naim DAC with additional supply. This was early 2010. It's was still not my preferred way to listen but it was palatable and filled a need. Top current dedicated UPNP servers and renderers leave nothing to be desired. It's unlikely that your level of expectations are higher than mine. I do agree that listening is the best way to judge.

 

[InsanityOne]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

  Lynx now joins the Dante family...
 
 
http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=2#
 
The BURL now has some serious competition:
http://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=LYNX-HILO-DT-SILVER
 
Pictures are of the USB verison - I guess the Dante Ethernet photos are not ready yet for their website.

 
 

 

 
Available Dec 2016 -  I already have one on pre-order.
 
SPDIF and AES digital output - AND a DAC and an ADC - DC Battery power pack available.  Quality HP output.
 
Lynx has a reputation for making excellent SQ audio.
 
$2499 LSlot version, $2699 with Dante built in.
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/lynx-hilo
 

 

 
Yes, I saw this the other day as well. A Lynx Hilo with an add-on (LT-DANTE) card? It is like a dream come true! Seeing as you have one on pre-order, will you be posting a comparison between your modded Burl B2 and the Lynx Hilo + LT-DANTE? I would be very curious to hear which one you thought was better!
 
- InsanityOne 

 

[rb2013]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

 
Yes, I saw this the other day as well. A Lynx Hilo with an add-on (LT-DANTE) card? It is like a dream come true! Seeing as you have one on pre-order, will you be posting a comparison between your modded Burl B2 and the Lynx Hilo + LT-DANTE? I would be very curious to hear which one you thought was better!
 
- InsanityOne 

This is gonna be a tough critic of the HiLo.
 
First DAC chips - Cirrus CS4398 - not my favorite for sure.  They do use a dual DAC configuration - but this may be a problem.  For me the AKM 4399 DAC in the BURL is much better.
 
Worse they use a TI LM IC Opamps in analog output stage - much prefer the discrete Class A proprietary BOPA1 all‑discrete op‑amp modules.
 
May cancel that pre-order...

 

[rb2013]

  UPNP transfers unpacked files and supplies a digital steam. It's not just transferring file packets. Yes, the renderer needs to play the format but it's more than a file transfer.  
 
With rednet (as I understand it) the clock(ing) is often still far from the DAC. I appreciate the JET jitter reducing clock recovery as I feel it was the best PC transfer method via firewire and better than anything I've come across USB but I still prefer UPNP protocols for this. Noise should be similar for both but I prefer clocking as close to the DAC as possible. 
 
Don't get me wrong, it will be great for some pro uses but I don't see a qualitative advantage for home users.

You might want to read Miska's (creator of the HQPlayer) posts from a great CA thread - I have on page 2 - regarding the issues with UpNP/DNLA:
 
I will repost them for your convience - BTW a few folks on this thread and a unnamed blog have compared the MicroRendu to the Rednet - it crushed the MicroR.
 

For getting unaltered data to DAC, DLNA is not good either. First, to get anything started it requires very delicate dancing between three devices. And it requires processing from the renderer (decoding source content). It is not very good for unprocessed either, because you don't know if and how the server is messing with your data.

At the end, It is practically same as telling your web browser to play content from a web server, like YouTube. Control Point is telling which content Renderer (you web browser) should load from the Media Server (web server). If you need to seek backwards, Renderer needs to disconnect from the server and issue a new HTTP GET request, because you cannot go backwards in the stream. Since the GET request is made with byte offset it is only whereabouts with any compressed stream (like FLAC), because exact position cannot be calculated on a variable bitrate.
 
​

I didn't like UPnP before, and after implementing UPnP/AV support to HQPlayer I like it even less. It is also very prone to all kinds of network issues which are hard to track down.​

For example I had two dumb gigabit switches (non-managed) that didn't pass UPnP for some strange reason, but for example NAA was working fine through those. I spent lot of time chasing down why it didn't work and at the end, using Wireshark I discovered that the mDNS packets sent to the switch didn't appear on any other port. It's a tech support nightmare.​

 

Originally Posted by vortecjr
I'm sorry your having problems with your UPNP implementation, but they are your problems not mine.






Again, I'm not talking of any particular implementation, I'm talking about the standard.

UPnP standard is built on top of HTTP standard and limitations and stupidities of HTTP standard have nothing to do with my implementation. You can also read yourself what UPnP/AV standard says about server side transcoding and what DLNAstandard says about mandatory and optional codecs.

It is not my implementation problem either if BubbleUPnP nor PlugPlayer can find MinimServer (or Sony TV, game consoles, Windows or anything else) over UPnPbecause switch doesn't let the necessary ethernet packet through. I've also heard of similar problems for certain internet routers between their built-in WiFi and ethernet too. And I've read reviews of UPnP gear on magazines too.

None of this has nothing to do with my implementation.


By the way, I cannot find Rendu from the DLNA product search:
​

Product Search​

 

From SuperDad:

Originally Posted by Cebolla
Certainly it doesn't matter about the music player software's actual music file playing functionality, because that's built into the UPnP renderer and no reason why it can't be designed to be every bit as good.






My best laugh of the day so far. You ought to look closer at what it takes to implement a DLNA renderer.
​

The processor and processing it goes through is immense.​

And from the s/w side, the architecture sucks as well (for just one developer's screed see:​

Why do I hate DLNA protocol so much ? | Ben's Lost World - Diary of a GeeXboX developer​

).​

Sorry, but to me, DLNA and purist audio are like oil and water.​

 

Quote:

10-26-2014, 03:25 PM

#83​

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Superdad

Music lover; Owner, UpTone Audio

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Originally Posted by Habanero Monk
Not sure what you guys are doing that Dante isn't or Crown or Meridian.

We researched all the audio over Ethernet APIs and systems: Audinate's Dante, Cirrus Logic's Cobranet, Digigram's Ethersound, etc. Some were interesting in that they use data link layer packets instead of TCP/IP packets. But they all had more layers and complexity than what we are after--even if they do manage the very low latency and multicasting required for broadcast and alive sound reinforcement us. Not to mention rather steep licensing costs and the same player software limitations as with DLNA.
 

Originally Posted by Habanero Monk
Curious as to how you are going to supersede I2S (if I'm reading your post correctly). That would require custom sand I believe.






What I meant was that the Ethernet (and optionally USB) input module at the DACside may not output I2S directly; rather the board would run a high-speed, raw signal (in a format with chip types we are keeping secret for now) over to ether:
a) the DAC board where the licensee would receive it with isolators and flops and feed their own clock, etc.;
or for the DIY version
b) a small board with isolators, flops, and good clocks (which could even be skipped if the user wanted to feed his own clock back), and which would output I2S.




​

 

 

[rb2013]

Nice astro!

And ... ?

I think he's lost in audio nirvana...AOIP has done this to all of us.

For me, my mind was lost trying to decide what classic album to re-experience next.

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

Does anyone know where to get a Tascam AES Breakout cable? It seems everything online is either not labeled tascam pinout or says Yamaha.

 

[johnjen]

I'd try Markertek 1st.
 
How many channels do you want/need?
 
JJ

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

Only one but the ability to run 2-3 would be ideal.

 

[johnjen]

That's relatively easy to make up, it just needs a 4 pair cable, or 2-3) 110Ω single channel cables, and a DB25 on one end with the XLR's on the other.
Canare has 4 pair 'snake cable'.
 
And going with more exotic true 110Ω cable (which usually has a larger OD) limits it to 1 or 2 channels.
 
JJ

 

[Iving]

I think he's lost in audio nirvana...

 
It's true. PM . We'll get a report by and by ... maybe ...

 

[Muziqboy]

   
It's true. PM . We'll get a report by and by ... maybe ...

I'll bet he's awestruck and speechless like all of us when we first heard the Rednets in our systems! lol

 

[Iving]

Yep lol
Also a case of ... you know ... Gotta sell the A-Bomb