AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[jabbr]

Hi Rob

I have been reading some about the B2 and I have the impression, the DAC isn't automatically setting the sample rate of the incoming signal but needs to be set manually.
Is that indeed the way B2 works?

Cheers

Yes there is a front panel knob to set the SR. Since Dante does not allow SR following not a big deal.

Dante may not do SR following, but Focusrite is apparently on the brink of releasing an update of the Rednet Control that will implement SR following. A choice for Burl DAC would probably be a dead end choice in that respect.

The Cardas XLR/RCA adapters look to be well made. They seem to bee non-attenuating so the full signal level will be passed on.
I wonder what input sensitivity your pre-amp has, as mine is very sensitive and too hot a signal will leave barely any allowance for volume control.
So just wondering what kind of / signal level pre-amps you guys are using.

Cheers

 

[rb2013]

Dante may not do SR following, but Focusrite is apparently on the brink of releasing an update of the Rednet Control that will implement SR following. A choice for Burl DAC would probably be a dead end choice in that respect.

The Cardas XLR/RCA adapters look to be well made. They seem to bee non-attenuating so the full signal level will be passed on.
I wonder what input sensitivity your pre-amp has, as mine is very sensitive and too hot a signal will leave barely any allowance for volume control.
So just wondering what kind of / signal level pre-amps you guys are using.

Cheers

I think you are confusing Vrms to dBU.
 
Here is a neat calculator to do the conversion.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm
 
Most DAC's output between 2Vrms and 3V on their SE outputs..
 
The BURL DAC outputs 3Vrms set at the -8db setting putting out +12dBu.  But can be set to incrementally higher output levels - all the way up to the -18db setting, putting out +21.3dBu or +8.99 Vrms.
 

 The front-panel controls start with the familiar output-level rotary switch, offering options from ‑18 to ‑8dBu. A 0dBFS digital input generates +21.3dBu at the analogue output when set to the 18dB position, and +12dBu when at the 8dB position, the other positions giving 2dB increments in peak level. The scale numbering is indicating headroom above a nominal +4dBu reference level — hence the 8dB position giving a peak output 8dB above +4dBu. The maximum output should be +22dBu, but there appears to be some minor attenuator misalignment at the very high end.

 
This is very useful as most DACs put out +4Vrms or higher on their XLR outputs.  For example the Gustard X20 DAC:

Analog output:​

​

RCA output level: 2.3 Vrms @0dBFS​

​

XLR Output Level: 4.6 Vrms @0dBFS (XLR interface definition: 1Ground, 2Hot, 3Cold)​

 
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/why-are-dac-output-levels-so-high.436973/
 
PS These Rothwell RCA and XLR attenuators are the best made so if your pre-amp has issues with high input levels they would solve it.
 
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

 

[jabbr]

Dante may not do SR following, but Focusrite is apparently on the brink of releasing an update of the Rednet Control that will implement SR following. A choice for Burl DAC would probably be a dead end choice in that respect.


The Cardas XLR/RCA adapters look to be well made. They seem to bee non-attenuating so the full signal level will be passed on.

I wonder what input sensitivity your pre-amp has, as mine is very sensitive and too hot a signal will leave barely any allowance for volume control.

So just wondering what kind of / signal level pre-amps you guys are using.


Cheers

I think you are confusing Vrms to dBU.

Here is a neat calculator to do the conversion.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

Most DAC's output between 2Vrms and 3V on their SE outputs..

The BURL DAC outputs 3Vrms set at the -8db setting putting out +12dBu.  But can be set to incrementally higher output levels - all the way up to the -18db setting, putting out +21.3dBu or +8.99 Vrms.

 The front-panel controls start with the familiar output-level rotary switch, offering options from ‑18 to ‑8dBu. A 0dBFS digital input generates +21.3dBu at the analogue output when set to the 18dB position, and +12dBu when at the 8dB position, the other positions giving 2dB increments in peak level. The scale numbering is indicating headroom above a nominal +4dBu reference level — hence the 8dB position giving a peak output 8dB above +4dBu. The maximum output should be +22dBu, but there appears to be some minor attenuator misalignment at the very high end.

This is very useful as most DACs put out +4Vrms or higher on their XLR outputs.  For example the Gustard X20 DAC:

Analog output:

​

​

RCA output level: 2.3 Vrms @0dBFS​

​

XLR Output Level: 4.6 Vrms @0dBFS (XLR interface definition: 1Ground, 2Hot, 3Cold)​

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/why-are-dac-output-levels-so-high.436973/

Hi Rob

Thanks for the extensive answer.

You say the Burl outputs 3Vrms at its lowest gain setting.
My pre-amp idealy should not get more than a 2.1V input signal to work with, my current DAC I set to an even lower output signal of 134mV (-27dB on 3V = 0 dBFS).

I have to be carefull with these pro signal levels apparently, if they will work at all.

 

[rb2013]

Hi Rob

Thanks for the extensive answer.

You say the Burl outputs 3Vrms at its lowest gain setting.
My pre-amp idealy should not get more than a 2.1V input signal to work with, my current DAC I set to an even lower output signal of 134mV (-27dB on 3V = 0 dBFS).

I have to be carefull with these pro signal levels apparently, if they will work at all.

Well 3Vrms is low for a XLR output (see the Gustard X20 puts out almost 5Vrms on the XLRs).  So when using XLR to SE adapters you need to be mindful of this.  My Pre-amp has XLR Balanced inputs as well as SE inputs so not an issue.  Generally balanced inputs will give you a lower noise floor.
 
The Rothwell line attenuators are available in many values and work great - with many fine reviews.  $50/pr.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rothwell-RCA-In-Line-Attenuators-Pair-10dB-For-Source-/391478062219?hash=item5b25e92c8b:g:0bAAAOSwZd1VfX5P
 
Just do a Ebay search for the other values.
 
134mV is an extraordinarily low output.

 

[jabbr]

....
134mV is an extraordinarily low output.

My pre-amp has an input sensitivity of 75mV so requires quite low input levels.
My current DAC offers 3Vrms as default output level. For the pre-amp this is too much, best sounding level for me is at -27dB.

 

[jazzfan]

I joined the RedNet 3 club earlier this week. After struggling for half a day with getting the RN3 up and running, I was finally able to get sound from the RN3 yesterday.  It's too soon for me to form a meaningful opinion about the RN3 (I'm currently experiencing occasional dropouts), so I'll withhold detailed comments until I've had more time with the unit. I will say, for the brief time I've had the RN3 in my system, I'm initially pleased with the differences I've heard.
 
PC --> Ethernet UTP --> RN3 --> ASE/EBU --> Yggy
 
I'd like to pose a Tidal/DVS WDM setup question to the group, but before I ask my question I must thank the OP and everyone else who have shared their RedNet setup experiences in this thread. I'd also like to give special thanks to @wushuliu for consolidating his installation instructions on another external forum. I found all of these post immensely helpful as I navigated the sometimes confusing RN3 installation process.
 
Now concerning Tidal, I able to stream Tidal to the RN3 by selecting the DVS Transmit 1-2 (Dante Virtual Soundcard) WDM driver as the Sound Output device and unchecking the Use Exclusive Mode option (see below). However, if I check the Use Exclusive Mode option, all sound stops from Tidal.
 

 
Has anyone successfully used DVS in exclusive mode with Tidal?

 

[somestranger26]

  Has anyone successfully used DVS in exclusive mode with Tidal?

If Tidal doesn't allow ASIO output, then I recommend using the Hifi Audio Bridge linked on the last page.

 

[jazzfan]

  If Tidal doesn't allow ASIO output, then I recommend using the Hifi Audio Bridge linked on the last page.

 
Tidal does not directly support ASIO. However, when I initially tried DVS ASIO w/ASIO Bridge, I experienced a rather high dropout rate of a few times an hour. Switching to WDM directly from Tidal, dropouts slowed to approximately one an hour. My hope is by getting Exclusive mode to work, the dropout rate might even be further reduced, or would that not be the case?

 

[TV Man]

rb2013,
 
How does the sound of your modded DAC-60 compare with the B2 DAC?
 
Thanks!

 

[rb2013]

rb2013,

How does the sound of your modded DAC-60 compare with the B2 DAC?

Thanks!

Oh man that is a good question. Well I would say with both at the current stage of modding, the edge has to go to the B2 Bomber. But that is before the new clock, tube output stage and better LPS for it. My thinking is the B2 with these further mods it's the winner by a long shot.

Already the detail has to go with the B2, same for SS width and depth. The DAC60 wins in the liquidity and warmth department.

My goal is to come up with a AOIP DAC that blows away DAC's 5 times more expensive, for under $3k total. FAR Less than a Yggy + RN3 + Mutec

PS Look at what Modwright did with the Oppo 105.

 

[TV Man]

Thanks for the detailed answer rb2013.
 
I have the previous generation Lite Audio DAC-50 in the form of a Monarchy M-24. It uses PCM63 chips for conversion and is a really good DAC. A Rednet 3 feeding it would be sweet! 
 
I wonder if Burl will make an upgraded B2 using the newest generation AK4490/AK4495/AK4497 family of chips. They are said to sound even better than the AK4399 does. Could raise the bar even further as far as sound quality goes.

 

[TV Man]

Also, wonder if there is a way to tap i2s lines on Burl's ethernet card?
 
That would be a nice hack for the DIY types to get ethernet>i2s>whatever their favorite DAC is via a $250 card.
 
If possible it would be so tempting I'd lay down the cash right away!

 

[TV Man]

<My goal is to come up with a AOIP DAC that blows away DAC's 5 times more expensive, for under $3k total. FAR Less than a Yggy + RN3 + Mutec>
 
Put a nice DHT output stage on that bad boy and come up with a Lampizator killer for less than half the price!

 

[cursto]

I am interested in getting an Antelope Audio Live clock to further improve my setup. Could someone be so kind to give an example of how to connect this into my current configuration. Both my DAC and Rednet 3 have wordclock in and out via BNC connectors. Does one need an incoming signal going into the Live clock? Where would this come from?
 
My current setup is: laptop and Rednet 3 connected to managed switch, digital out from Rednet 3 to DAC via AES/EBU  using db25 cable.
 
I have never used a master clock and would appreciate any help advice on implementing into my setup. Thanks in advance.

 

[rb2013]

  Thanks for the detailed answer rb2013.
 
I have the previous generation Lite Audio DAC-50 in the form of a Monarchy M-24. It uses PCM63 chips for conversion and is a really good DAC. A Rednet 3 feeding it would be sweet! 
 
I wonder if Burl will make an upgraded B2 using the newest generation AK4490/AK4495/AK4497 family of chips. They are said to sound even better than the AK4399 does. Could raise the bar even further as far as sound quality goes.

I don't know - I have the AK4399 in my APL DAC (6 DACs per channel) and have compared it to the new Schiit BiFrost MB (which uses the AK4490) - way prefer the APL.  The 4490 will handle higher sample rates.
 
I see Schiit still uses the AK4399 in the latest GUMBY.
 

  Also, wonder if there is a way to tap i2s lines on Burl's ethernet card?
 
That would be a nice hack for the DIY types to get ethernet>i2s>whatever their favorite DAC is via a $250 card.
 
If possible it would be so tempting I'd lay down the cash right away!

Don't want to spill any beans on that here right now...more to come, much more.
 

  <My goal is to come up with a AOIP DAC that blows away DAC's 5 times more expensive, for under $3k total. FAR Less than a Yggy + RN3 + Mutec>
 
Put a nice DHT output stage on that bad boy and come up with a Lampizator killer for less than half the price!

That's the plan.
 
Modwright's Oppo 105 Mod ext PS  - sweet!