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Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Until you destroyed his arguments with such devastating insights as "Ethan Winer is a moron who has said many stupid things" and "Many recording professionals do not understand the value of better cables and other tweaks"
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I sort of apologized later for this if you read my remarks. It's very frustrating that people take many of his claims at his word when there is much evidence to suggest the reality is quite different. I also tire of internet debates that start off with audio "myths" written by someone of limited experience. It has a "high end audio is snake oil" vibe that is not supportable or particularly fair. I was too harsh on Winer in my comments but I find much of what he says simply doesn't match up with any experience I have from working on redbook and hirez recordings since 1990.
I think Mr. Winer makes some good points, however, and I am a supporter of acoustic treatments. But I know that things like higher sampling rate and better cables and better power supplies make a difference.
As fror DBTs (double blind testing), on the web it just turns into a "religious debate". Both sides can post scientific evidence that they prove A or B but at the end of the day there is always a lot of typing and no minds being changed.
The best thing I can suggest, and arguably the most diplomatic, is for people to simply try these things on their own.
If you want to explore hirez benefits I suggest the 24/176 HRX ("master copies") that the Reference Recordings creates as they use the same mastering as their CD releases of the same title. I find that hirez adds significantly. In my work in Atlanta recording classical musicians it adds a sense of "hall" and much more detail to the violin and other instruments. It seems to get the timbre right as well which I don't find on redbook.
As for cables, well that is a well-fought battle on the net. Just try new cables and leave everything else the same. If you don't hear a difference, then save your money. I wish I did not hear the differences as I would save some money myself but as we have been recording over the past two decades we have moved from Mogami and Canare to Cardas to Kimber to Pear mic cables and it's improved our sound quality along the way.
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| You see, what I was saying is that while you may think you're doing that, you're really just throwing out semi-connected links without tying up the pieces, explaining the specific points of disagreement, or generally applying any thinking at all to the science behind the quoted abstracts. |
The papers above address the specific points that quoted Ethan on. I'm not sure what else can be said to change your mind. I think I have supported my views with some scientific and peer-reviewed articles here. Here is the point by point rebuttal with a link to his quotes:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6381195-post21.html
The thing that is difficult here is that there are some papers like Meyer-Moran that refute that people can hear hirez differences. Again, I think Meyer did a good job of proving his audience had poor critical listening skills more than present evidence that those differences do not exist.
I'll try to be more diplomatic in my responses going forward and I hope Mr. Winer did not take offense to my harsh comments earlier. I think the community here which is really awesome in many ways would be well served by a look at both the available data on these topics and
also by personal experimentation. I will try to advance both by suggesting things one can do at home if inclined and also present some AES or other high quality papers that present results of more scientific tests.
Also, if you want to see some interesting tests on cables then George Cardas has done some very interesting work. Here are some links:
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...able+Resonance
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...le+%28video%29
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...an+Audio+Cable
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ements+Matter?
Full disclosure: I know George, having met him in the studio while working with Chesky Records, and he is a friend. He is a member of the cable trade but I find that this does not bias him. He has a very curious mind and is more interested in technological progress than making up stuff to sell cables. He's one of the good guys just trying to get it right.
As well, Roy Gregory, formerly of HiFi+ and now with Nordost, has been doing some really cool work with a UK defense contractor and Vertex AQ to measure scientifically the impact of various audio tweaks on sound quality. They presented their data at RMAF in the fall. I will try to present some information on this but the white paper and PPT deck have not been publicly released yet AFAIK.
Also, as you can tell I am a subjectivist with a scientific twist. I believe that scientific data is very important and we should apply as much rigor as possible to audio but I also believe the best instrument still remains the human ear. In my experience, one cannot measure all the complex phenomena of an audio event. Your mileage may vary but that is what twenty years of pro recording and high end experimentation have taught me.
