[athlon64]

So, i currently own beyerdynamic dt770's 80ohm version. And i'm planning to buy a pair of Yamaha HS8 monitors for mixing and daily listening use. 
 
Now to run that, i obviously need some kind of an external DAC and a headphone amp. 
 
I was first looking at buying an audio interface like a focusrite 2i4 or steinberg UR242. I would like to have a few XLR inputs available so i don't have to go in to the local studio every time i need to record some vocals or guitars. I wasn't planning on getting anything bigger then 4 input channels because to record drums i need over 10 channels and that is to expensive. The primary use of this interface is not recording, it's having a device that will give my headphones and monitors nice clean signal with good D-A conversion. 
 
An interface like the focusrite 2i4 has all of these things, it has separate headphone volume control and monitor volume control, which is very hand to me. It also has a few input channels which might come in handy too. 
 
 
However after digging and digging for days, all of these < 300$ interfaces seem like a piece of chinese crap to me. 
Focusrite seems to have build quality issues, steinberg seems to have unstable drivers. I use cubase for mixing so i tought a steinberg interface might be a great choice but i keep reading about how bad yamaha drivers are. 
 
And if we put all of that aside, i'm not shure can the DAC and the headphone amp in these things (which are the most important things to me here) compete with something like a schiit magni/modi stack. 
 
I am also alergic to seeing "made in china" on audio equipment. When i'm buying a graphics card for my PC, i don't care, it's a piece of plastic that will be garbage in 3 years. When i'm buying audio equipment i'm expecting it to last decades. These audio interfaces don't look like a pice of professional audio equipment but like a piece of PC gear.
 
So i can't decide. I don't want to get a low quality DAC/headphone amp just because i wanted a few XLR inputs.
 
What are yours opinions on the DAC's in steinberg,focusrite and native instruments audio interfaces?
What are my best other options if i decide not to go get a soundcard but rather an external DAC + headphone amp.
 
Just to repeate. The equipment that will be used with this is a pair of yamaha HS8 studio monitors and 80ohm DT770's.
 
Thanks.  

 

[cel4145]

I am also alergic to seeing "made in china" on audio equipment.

Yeah, well, most audio equipment these days is either assembled in China or has components made in China. Best to get over that. (lol)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
And if we put all of that aside, i'm not shure can the DAC and the headphone amp in these things (which are the most important things to me here) compete with something like a schiit magni/modi stack. 

 
I wouldn't worry about the DAC, but the headphone amp. A lot of these interfaces have a high output impedance and are rated for a low power-relatively high distortion output at low impedance, which while it's otherwise enough power you still deal with the impedance mismatch, and there's no indication of their power output being higher at high impedance either (ie like an OTL amplifier that simply works better with high impedance headphones).

 

[athlon64]

   
I wouldn't worry about the DAC, but the headphone amp. A lot of these interfaces have a high output impedance and are rated for a low power-relatively high distortion output at low impedance, which while it's otherwise enough power you still deal with the impedance mismatch, and there's no indication of their power output being higher at high impedance either (ie like an OTL amplifier that simply works better with high impedance headphones).

What can you advise on this problem? Buying an audio interface and then an additional headphone amplifier? 
 
Does any of these audio interfaces have a better headphone amp? Ni komplete 6, focusrite, steinberg? 
 
What if we eliminate the need of having an audio interface at all. What if i just focus on my primary needs. Running the HS8's and my beyerdynamics? 
 
I have been thinking about the "schiit" stack but the schiit headphone amp would give me a volume know, for my headphones, not for my monitors. Which means i coudn't have separate control of the monitor and the headphone loudnes at the same time. The yamahas have a potentiometer but it's in the back of the speaker. So i loose flexibility. I can't keep my monitors ON all the time and then just switch between them and headphones whenever i want. I'd need to turn off monitors whenever i want just the headphones. The focusrite and all other cards have a separate volume control for the monitors and the headphones. This is quiet a benefit to me. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  What can you advise on this problem? Buying an audio interface and then an additional headphone amplifier? 
 
Does any of these audio interfaces have a better headphone amp? Ni Komplete 6, Focusrite, Steinberg? 
 
What if we eliminate the need of having an audio interface at all. What if i just focus on my primary needs. Running the HS8's and my Beyerdynamics? 
 
I have been thinking about the "Schiit" stack but the Schiit headphone amp would give me a volume know, for my headphones, not for my monitors. Which means I couldn't have separate control of the monitor and the headphone loudness at the same time. The Yamaha's have a potentiometer but it's in the back of the speaker. So i loose flexibility. I can't keep my monitors ON all the time and then just switch between them and headphones whenever i want. I'd need to turn off monitors whenever i want just the headphones. The Focusrite and all other cards have a separate volume control for the monitors and the headphones. This is quiet a benefit to me. 

 
It seems that an Audio Interface would be a little more desirable for your use.
(recording and separate volume control for the monitors)
 
You might consider buying a used Audio Interface off eBay.
 
An Audio Interface might decently drive the 80-Ohm DT770 headphone.
(the DT770 80-Ohm do like a decent amount of power to be driven to their best)
You might consider selling off the DT770 and get (32-Ohm) Soundmagic HP150 headphones.
The 32-Ohm HP150 would be easily driving by even the cheapest Audio Interface.
 
Which brand of Audio Interface to get?
I have no idea.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

What can you advise on this problem? Buying an audio interface and then an additional headphone amplifier? 

 

Depends. Don't you need the line out on the interface? Also they're all preamped outputs, not plain line outs.

 

Try your DT770 first - if it gets loud enough (and being a closed back design helps lower the noise floor too) without getting too much distortion then you're fine. I mean, the Scarlett 2i2 has a 10ohm IIRC, 80ohms won't have any issues with the impedance and it isn't too high for the clean output level to get too low.

 

If you didn't have the DT770 what I'd rather do is get a headphone with high impedance but really high efficiency, that way the interface won't have any issues driving it. Look into the 300ohm version of the Beyerdynamic Tesla T70. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

What if we eliminate the need of having an audio interface at all. What if i just focus on my primary needs. Running the HS8's and my beyerdynamics? 

 

Any DAC-HPamp that has a preamp will work, you just need to check if the headphone amp can drive your headphones well enough.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I have been thinking about the "schiit" stack but the schiit headphone amp would give me a volume know, for my headphones, not for my monitors. Which means i coudn't have separate control of the monitor and the headphone loudnes at the same time. The yamahas have a potentiometer but it's in the back of the speaker. So i loose flexibility. I can't keep my monitors ON all the time and then just switch between them and headphones whenever i want. I'd need to turn off monitors whenever i want just the headphones. The focusrite and all other cards have a separate volume control for the monitors and the headphones. This is quiet a benefit to me. 

 

I don't really understand the problem here - why would you even think you need to keep the monitors on all the time? When you use the headphone then use it plugged in. When you want to use the monitors, you switch them on, unplug the headphones, the audio signal is routed through the preamp outputs instead of the headphone amplifier output. You want to use the headphones again, plug them into the amplifier, then switch off the monitors, and the signal is routed through the output stage of the headphone amplifier.

 

If you get a newer AudioGD product you don't even need to unplug the headphone, they have a switch out front that selects the output - headphone output, direct line out from the DAC stage, or rout it through the potentiometer but skip the headphone amp output stage for the variable output.

 

[athlon64]

Changing my dt770's is not an option. They are perfect and the 80ohm model fit my sound taste just right. There are slight differences in how 80 ohm and  250ohm models sound. The 80ohm ones are the only headphones in that pricerange that have just the right balance that i want. 
 
Also i don't use my headphones very loud, at least not for any significant periods of time. I work as a live sound engineer, i try to take care of my hearing as much as i can. 
The main goal here is making them sound good. If a good headphone amp will make them sound better, not just louder. That's a different topic then. 
 
So you think i should first try out a decent audio interface and then see do i need to buy something additional?
 
The main question here is, how much better will the Schiit stack do D - A coversion VS one of these soundcards. I can add the headphone amp later if that's needed. I just don't know how good D/A converters in these things are. 
 
I know any DAC - preamp will work, the question is not what will work but what will sound better and will there be enough difference to sacrifise more money and the fact that i'd like to have a recording interface. 
 
 
Regarding the last part of your reply.
So if i have s schiit magni/modi stack, the USB cable goes into the DAC, then a short RC cable takes the signal to the headphone amp. Then the RC output of the headphone AMP goes to the yamahas and in front i plug in my headphones.
Once i do that one volume knob controls levels of both the monitors and headphones. If i want just the monitors i unplug headphones. But if i want just headphones i have to turn of the monitors with their switches on the back of each monitor. 
This is not very practical when i wan't to do many quick switches between the two when mixing. 

 

[cel4145]

I am pretty sure that the Magni switches between headphone output and output to the speakers depending on whether or not the headphones are plugged in. You could verify that by asking in the Magni 2 thread. http://www.head-fi.org/t/748067/official-schiit-magni-modi-2-uber-thread

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 

Also i don't use my headphones very loud, at least not for any significant periods of time. I work as a live sound engineer, i try to take care of my hearing as much as i can. 

The main goal here is making them sound good. If a good headphone amp will make them sound better, not just louder. That's a different topic then. 

 

The main question here is, how much better will the Schiit stack do D - A coversion VS one of these soundcards. I can add the headphone amp later if that's needed. I just don't know how good D/A converters in these things are. 

 

I know any DAC - preamp will work, the question is not what will work but what will sound better and will there be enough difference to sacrifise more money and the fact that i'd like to have a recording interface. 

 

That's precisely why I said try them out first. If it sounds fine at the volume you listen at, then no problem. If you listen at low volume, then even less problems there - if you don't get the interface to a point where the distortion is audible then there's no point in getting another amplifier. It's not easy to tell if you are listening low enough for that, but just so you might go ahead at some point and give in to upgraditis after getting the interface now so you can record with it, don't expect at lot of difference if any. At very low volume (basically just a little over ambient) my iPad isn't that much worse than any of my amplifiers - it's not just the lack of distortion but also because at this low level I can hear the ambient noise through there.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Regarding the last part of your reply.

So if i have s schiit magni/modi stack, the USB cable goes into the DAC, then a short RC cable takes the signal to the headphone amp. Then the RC output of the headphone AMP goes to the yamahas and in front i plug in my headphones.

Once i do that one volume knob controls levels of both the monitors and headphones. If i want just the monitors i unplug headphones. But if i want just headphones i have to turn of the monitors with their switches on the back of each monitor. 

This is not very practical when i wan't to do many quick switches between the two when mixing. 

 

 

I still don't see the problem. If it's for "quick switching" then why do you need to turn off the monitor? What I outlined above doesn't take that into account but even then it isn't a problem. If you're using the monitor and want to switch to a headphone, then plug in the headphone and the amplifier typically cuts the signal to the preamplifier output. Unplug the headphone while the monitors are on, and the amplifier will automatically send the signal to the preamplifier output instead. I really can't see what the problem is in that situation unless you buy one of those amplifiers that don't work like the rest, ie one that keeps a signal output on both, but I haven't encountered any amplifier that doesn't cut the output to the preamp out if a headphone is plugged in. In fact I've seen more questions on this forum for people who ask how they can make the signal come out of both at the same time so they can use a subwoofer with the headphone.

 

There's even AudioGD whose DAC-HPamp products (ie both built into the same chassis) have both an input and an output selector in front - the latter can manually switch between headphone amplifier output, direct from DAC (fixed voltage) output, and preamp output - so that unplugging the headphone won't be necessary, useful for at least minimizing one way of piling on wear on any part, in this case, the headphone socket.

 

[athlon64]

To be precise right now to run mi Hi-fi (jamo bx 150's) and these beyedynamic cans. I use a Creative labs audigy SE. Pci-soundcard. 
 
And i use foobar for playback. When cranked up it's way to loud. For "louder" listening i use it at about 60% of what it can do. While 90% of the day i keep it around 30% or lower.  
 
The audigy SE sounds a lot better then the integrated soundcard on my PC motherboard. And the audigy SE is a cheap piece of crap. I'm sure the steinberg ur22 mk2 DAC and headphone amp will be better then what i have now. Now if the magni/modi stack would be just slightly better then the steinberg  i'm, definitley going for the steinberg audio interface. 
 
I'm going to have use of those available inputs, plus i will get original cubase that i need for mixing.
 
I tought that these interfaces are focused on recording so they have crap D-A coverters and headphone amps. But it seems that's not really the case. 
 
 
 
 
2. Yes but i didn't think that the amp cuts signal to the monitors when headphones are plugged in. I wrote a post in the shiit subject so i can check that. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

To be precise right now to run mi Hi-fi (jamo bx 150's) and these beyedynamic cans. I use a Creative labs audigy SE. Pci-soundcard. 

 

And i use foobar for playback. When cranked up it's way to loud. For "louder" listening i use it at about 60% of what it can do. While 90% of the day i keep it around 30% or lower.  

 

The audigy SE sounds a lot better then the integrated soundcard on my PC motherboard. And the audigy SE is a cheap piece of crap. I'm sure the steinberg ur22 mk2 DAC and headphone amp will be better then what i have now. Now if the magni/modi stack would be just slightly better then the steinberg  i'm, definitley going for the steinberg audio interface. 

 

I tought that these interfaces are focused on recording so they have crap D-A coverters and headphone amps. But it seems that's not really the case. 

 

OK...see here's the problem when describing loudness. When you said don't use them very loud, I thought that for comparison you totally wouldn't even get to 50% of a soundcard (just to use that scale), if at least on anything but the latest Win10 update (which lowered the gain). 

 

With the Scarlett, at 30% it'd be hard to tell the difference with the soundcard, but once you try to get to the same loudness as the soundcard at 60%, the interface might already have distortion. "Might," because while this seems like a comparable scale, gain, power, and distortion levels are a more complex math. But basically at the same output as 50% on the soundcard I wouldn't easily bet on an entry level interface.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

2. Yes but i didn't think that the amp cuts signal to the monitors when headphones are plugged in. I wrote a post in the shiit subject so i can check that. 

 

 

Wait...so what you want is to have the signal playing in both at the same time? So what you're planning to do is lower the volume on the monitors with the headphone on? I'm not sure that's a lot better than just setting both to a comparable level and then the signal cuts out of one whichever is used, but if that's how you really prefer to use them then you have no choice but to go with an audio interface.

 

[athlon64]

I'm using windows 10 with all the updates.  Currently, playing some music i usually listen to, foobar maxed out. 10% seems like my average daily listening volume while i;m working, doing something.
30-40% sounds like my average "louder" volume when i'm focused on music listening. 60% sounds like the loudest i will ever get my headphgones for maybe a few minutes if i really want to feel the song. 
 
At 36%, playing swerve city by deftones. My iphone loudness meter, with the iphone microphone pushed deep into one side of the beyerdynamic can, says 93dBA average. I have an SPL meter from "studio six digital" on my iphone. It's quiet precise under about 105dBA. 
 
So you are telling me an audio interface like the scarlett can't compete with the damn creative audigy SE that is worth about 15 dollars? 
 
What if i buy a steinberg ur242 with that gets power from the wall. That won't give me much improvement? 
 
If i', not happy with the headphone amp should i at least expect a good DAC and then buy the amp from shiit? 
 
 
2.
Yes that is exactly what i'd like to be able to do and yes it seems like only an audio interface can provide that. But true, having them at the same level and plugging/unplugging headphones is not really a huge problem. 

 

[athlon64]

Okay i managed to get some usefull info. All of these interfaces have specified max headphone output in mW. In reviews people are mostly not happy with the headphone output od the steinberg UR22. Which is understandable because in the specsheet it's stated that it can only give 6mW into a pair of 40 ohm headphones. 
 
The slightly more expensive version which i could also buy. (The ur 242) Has an external AC adapter and is capable of exporting 15mW into 40 ohms. 
If this is enoguh for my DT 770's i'd probably buy this interface. 
 
Focusrite on the other hand has their famous scarlett 2i2 card. In it's specifications i found this:

Power Output into 150Ω	15mW
Power Output into 50Ω	30mW

This card however does not have an AC adapter.
 
I'm slightly confused, how much power would my 80ohm cans need to get loud enough, what would be decent for them? 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I'm using windows 10 with all the updates.  Currently, playing some music i usually listen to, foobar maxed out. 10% seems like my average daily listening volume while i;m working, doing something.

30-40% sounds like my average "louder" volume when i'm focused on music listening. 60% sounds like the loudest i will ever get my headphgones for maybe a few minutes if i really want to feel the song. 

 

If you have all the updates the latest Win10 has relatively low digital gain.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

At 36%, playing swerve city by deftones. My iphone loudness meter, with the iphone microphone pushed deep into one side of the beyerdynamic can, says 93dBA average. I have an SPL meter from "studio six digital" on my iphone. It's quiet precise under about 105dBA. 

 

Not sure how that app is calibrated, but on my listening levels using an Android and several SPL apps the readings are somewhere around 75dB to 80dB for headphones, and around 89dB when my IEM's eartip is mashed against the phone mic.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

So you are telling me an audio interface like the scarlett can't compete with the damn creative audigy SE that is worth about 15 dollars? 

 

I emphasized the word "might" up there twice - once italicized, once with quotation marks. What I said, again, is that depending on the gain, output power and THD, there is a chance that might not be better. In other words, don't expect a big enough difference, as there might be a chance there won't be any at low level and then there's still a chance that, given a soundcard with higher gain but manages to stay clean enough, it might sound louder for not much more noise and distortion,which on subjective evaluation will will be perceived as better.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

What if i buy a steinberg ur242 with that gets power from the wall. That won't give me much improvement? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Okay i managed to get some usefull info. All of these interfaces have specified max headphone output in mW. In reviews people are mostly not happy with the headphone output od the steinberg UR22. Which is understandable because in the specsheet it's stated that it can only give 6mW into a pair of 40 ohm headphones. 

 

The slightly more expensive version which i could also buy. (The ur 242) Has an external AC adapter and is capable of exporting 15mW into 40 ohms. 

If this is enoguh for my DT 770's i'd probably buy this interface. 

 

Focusrite on the other hand has their famous scarlett 2i2 card. In it's specifications i found this:

Power Output into 150Ω	15mW
Power Output into 50Ω	30mW

This card however does not have an AC adapter.

 

I'm slightly confused, how much power would my 80ohm cans need to get loud enough, what would be decent for them? 

 

Those output power specs don't even mention THD, much less the output impedance (the Scarletts are 10ohm, which isn't a problem for your 80-ohm headphones). There's a thread I came across recently with output power specs for a portable amplifier rated at 10%, which basically serves to inflate the perception of how much power is actually usable. 

 

Now, the thing is, you won't actually nee need a gob-ton of power, depending on how loud you listen (even for short periods, ex. to favorite tracks), but the key is to have a lot of power reserve for peaks as well as having enough of clean continuous and peak power for when you do go loud.  

 

Personally, at low level listening, even that 15mW at 40ohms is probably enough to bet on guesstimating around 7.5watts at 80ohms, but when you want to go louder, there's a chance that while it will produce more power than what it's rated for, the distortion will also pile on a lot more. Just how much more isn't clear - it could be bad enough to be audible, maybe not. It might be audible but distorts in a way that tube amps distort, so they'll sound better subjectively to most listeners. The thing is the relationship between input power, sensitivity, efficiency, output (and distortion) are not linear but logarithmic, so while 5mW is enough to get you started on low level listening, cranking it up to go 3dB louder can mean you might already need 100mW depending on the sensitivity and efficiency. At the very least though the DT770 are closed back, so you have less ambient noise to deal with.

 

The Scarlett's higher output power ratings are no clearer given it isn't clear what THD levels either set of data are at, and heck even with hi-fi amps it doesn't show the distortion curve, you basically just go with whichever amplifier you can afford that is farther from 0.1%. Also, it's not easy to just dismiss the specs on the basis of what kind of power each uses, considering how even among headphone amps some battery-powered amps can make more power at Class A/B than wall-powered Class A amps. In the case of the UR242, the cost and power could be more for the mic preamp than the headphone amp.

 

That said, if we take into account that, barring lying and quoting power output at audible distortion levels, both manufacturers will quote at close to 0.1%, then chances are the Scarlett does produce more clean power by comparison. If anything, if you can't find the output impedance specs on the UR242 to be sure, I'd much rather consider the 10ohms of the Scarletts to be a safer bet.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

If i', not happy with the headphone amp should i at least expect a good DAC and then buy the amp from shiit? 

 

If you have enough line outputs on the interface then sure, hook up a headphone amp, just set the gain on it properly. In this case you'd have to go with one that has two sets of preamp outputs. You can't use the headphone output to feed a headphone amp -  all you will do is add gain to a signal that has more distortion and noise already than a preamp output.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlon64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Yes that is exactly what i'd like to be able to do and yes it seems like only an audio interface can provide that. But true, having them at the same level and plugging/unplugging headphones is not really a huge problem. 

 

You can even set the gain on the monitors so that the output level will be comparable to the output level to your ears from the headphones, this way plugging/unplugging will require minimal or no adjustment to the volume, as opposed to using an interface that runs both simultaneously which will actually require you to either unplug the headphone so you won't hear it when using the monitors, or lower the volume on the headphone or monitor when using the other.

AFAIK though interfaces only output to the headphone or speaker, not both, unlike some mixers, so best check how they actually work.

 

[athlon64]

I know how it works. Peaks are a lot louder then the average, depending on the crest factor. Every additional 3dB requiers power doubling and every ~10dB is percieved as twice as loud subjectively, on average. It's not about getting them loud enough it's about getting them clean and undistorted. 
 
Yes the scarlets have a 10ohm output. Considering reviews it seems like most people with 80ohm beyerdynamics are happy with focusrite preamps. 
However i noticed one thing. The scarlet 2i2 and all the steinberg cards. Only have 2 balanced jack outputs, for the monitors. Which would mean that in case of buying a headphone amp, unless i can use some kind of a splitter. 
I would need to connect those outputs to the magni 2 uber with a jack - RCA adapter. And then give my monitors signal from the magni 2. 
 
This does not sound like a good idea at all. if it's even possible.
 
The scarlet 2i4 however, does have paralel RC outputs together with balanced jack outputs for my monitors. Which means i would have no problems adding an amp on top of it. 
 
The 6i6 also has 4 Jack outputs, not paralel but i think you can make them reproduce the same signal so it also wouldn't mind having an amp on top of it.
 
This brings me to a conclusion of knocking the 2i2 out of the game, because even if i'm happy with it's amp now, what if i get a pair of 600 ohm headphones in the future? 
 
So i buy a 2i4 or a 6i6 and then ad an amp if needed. 
 
If i could do the same with the steinberg UR242 i'd probably buy it but it seems it only has 2 Jack outputs.