At last true Hi-Fi sound from your PC! Bring on... Tubes???
Aug 28, 2001 at 4:13 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 25

KR...

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http://home.swbell.net/ronsuthe/


from http://www.stereophile.com :

Making Your PC Sing

By Jon Iverson

August 27, 2001 — Don't smirk, but a lot of audiophiles, including this writer and our esteemed editor John Atkinson, spend a considerable amount of time listening to music on their computers, especially at work. In fact, the results from our recent online poll about computers and listening habits indicate that at least 60% of our readers listen this way as well, with half of those using their PCs for music playback "quite often."
High-end audio equipment designer Ron Sutherland says he, too, found himself listening to his office PC often enough that he started to tinker with the audio possibilities. "When we go to the office, we leave behind our good-sounding systems, and the music is from the PC, using sources such as CD, MP3, and webcasting. Personally, I'm getting a big charge out of MP3 webcasting, but the sound cards are at the low end of low-fi."

Sutherland explains, "Inside the computer it is electrically very noisy, which is a bad environment for a sound card. Sound cards are also typically built to be cheap, with no budget for audiophile components." So, Sutherland says, he started to look at the data rate on the USB bus, which is the same as CD at 16-bit/44.1kHz, and decided that this might be "an acceptable data path for good audio."

After several weeks of development, he created the 12dAX7 preamp/DAC, which is connected to the PC via the USB port. Sutherland emphasizes that he's included "all of the 'politically correct' audiophile details: Wima polypropylene caps, Dale metal film resistors, toroidal power transformer, double-sided fiber-glass circuit board, minimal signal path, and on and on. But the real kicker is that the gain stage uses a premium Sovtek 12AX7 vacuum tube, and the thing is sounding very fine."

"Filtering is LC passive and the volume control is an analog pot, so there is not the bit shedding associated with digital attenuators," says Sutherland. "The 12dAX7 has full signal resolution at all listening levels." It is 15" wide x 9" deep x 3" high, and Sutherland says that it "looks like the high-end component that it is: steel case with a ½"-thick machined Lexan front panel with a window, so you can see the tubes inside."

The price for the USB preamp/DAC is $1495 and Sutherland says that it has just become available from a new dedicated website. "I see the market as music lovers with good systems at home. They spend a lot of time at the office and would enjoy good tunes there also. The PC is ideal as an MP3 jukebox, or using CDs and webcasting. Sound quality can go way up by using the 12dAX7 with a good power amp and good speakers, because the tube gain stage smoothes out the signal, making a huge library of music very listenable and enjoyable."

Sutherland adds, "Since building the prototype, I use it all day, every day. I'm getting more use and pleasure out of this than anything I've ever owned. It's so much fun to have access to so much new music."
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 7:49 AM Post #2 of 25
eeeek usb?

isnt that one of the worse paths u can take?
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 8:49 AM Post #4 of 25
USB audio is not very robust, if you run other CPU intensive applications, the sound will skip... But other than using an internal card that sends out a digital stream to the external device, this seems like a good solution..

Quote:

So, Sutherland says, he started to look at the data rate on the USB bus, which is the same as CD at 16-bit/44.1kHz, and decided that this might be "an acceptable data path for good audio."


But reading that, it sounds like he invented USB audio. This format has been around for a while, and is built into the windows operating system. MANY other products, though none as expensive as this one, have already used the USB bus for audio...

but how is he supposed to sell somthing to audiophiles if its not 'groundbreaking' and uses 'proprietary technology'
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 11:59 AM Post #5 of 25
Quote:

but how is he supposed to sell somthing to audiophiles if its not 'groundbreaking' and uses 'proprietary technology'


Good question. Maybe he's selling "laziness". There are a lot of buyers out there, believe me.
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 1:43 PM Post #6 of 25
In defense of Ron Sutherland I would like to say that this preamp is really awesome. I've owned one for awhile now and use it all day everyday. I'll be honest, I am biased as he is a good friend of mine and I will always think highly of his designs but I think there are very good justifications for his reasons.

I'm not arguing about anything, just looking at the messages with a little different view. OK
smily_headphones1.gif




He is not implying that he invented USB or that using it for audio is anything new. That's just it USB has been used for audio for quite some time, and quite poorly frankly. What he ment to say I believe is that he was looking for a better way to get good music from the computer without using an internal sound card or cheap dac processors and usb currently seemed like the best path.

quote:
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but how is he supposed to sell somthing to audiophiles if its not 'groundbreaking' and uses 'proprietary technology'
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It is 'groundbreaking' and it does use 'proprietany technology' There's never been a high-end product like this that uses a usb signal source. I'm not even comparing it to cheap mass market stuff.

This is truly a unique product! No one has ever used the usb digital audio signal in this configuration. This component will stack up with any high-fi tube component in it's price region. There's nothing cheap in this unit. The cpu external dac in this unit is about the best you can get. Not a $5 circuit I can guarantee that.

I've heard VERY expensive pro digital sound cards with the dac built in and they don't even compare in the end.

I hope you all someday get a chance to hear a nice system using the 12dAX7 USB preamp as I think you would be amazed. I use this in my main system in my house as a preamp in conjunction with a 125w/channel diy amp and Martin Logan CLS's and it just rocks. I've just decided that the availability and access to more music is more important than having 100's of cd's like I used to. I really enjoy listening to all the webcasting from around the world, mp3's especially, and occassionally a cd or 2. You can use an analog/rca switch to change where you want the 12dAX 7's analog output to go. You can run it to a headphone amp or another amp if you like. I've got an X10 remote that I can control winamp or media player with so I can change to whatever source (tracks,mp3's, webcasting) I want without having to actually sit down at the computer. I do enough of that at work.

Happy philing !
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 1:54 PM Post #7 of 25
It might not be that bad. It sounds to me like he's just streaming the digital info from the USB port, not the audio. If the computer is only sending the digital info, it might not be using the processor as much. If the computer was using the processor as a DAC then outputting the audio, it would probably suck.

Just a thought.
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 3:07 PM Post #9 of 25
Thanks for looking into the 12dAX7. Appreciate the interest and comments.

As noted, USB audio has been around awhile. The purpose of the 12dAX7 is to make it sound "as good as possible". The product is based upon high-end audio techniques - the first such product I am aware of.

It is approriate to take a look at USB possibilities and concerns.

Possibilities indicate CD quality and a huge library of music.

Concerns are 'robustness' and music software quality.

Some glitchiness and drop outs have been observed. That seems to be related to the webcasting servers ability to 'keep up'. Depends on the program. I do not get drop outs when using my PC for other tasks.

There is a huge variance in sound quality from different webcasters. Good sound is possible - but not always delivered. As listeners become more critical of quality - there should be more good stations.

Happy Listening,

Ron Sutherland
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 5:00 PM Post #10 of 25
Ron,

Thanks for being here to answer our questions --- it's always appreciated when an audio manufacturer takes the time (and courage!) to participate in these forums. I have a question for you: how do you shield the RF noise from the USB input, and the slave-side USB controller?

McBiff,

The most expensive MP3 player I've ever heard was at CES this past year when Meridian played an MP3 recording through more than $100K of Meridian surround system. The stream was decoded to PCM, upsampled, and had Meridian's surround processing applied to it for playback on their 7-channel system. So $1500 isn't bad, and isn't the whole point listening to the music, and if Ron's device can help us get to the music better, it may be worth it for some people.

--Andre
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 5:06 PM Post #11 of 25
Question... There is a lot of talk of headphone amps being used as preamps... Seeing that this is a preamp, can it not have headphone driving capabilities?
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 6:11 PM Post #13 of 25
Yes, manufacturer input is usually welcome.

So my first question is how does this sound compared to the Wheatfield USB DAC? And why use a Sovtek for the tube? I know they're common, but I really didn't care for the Sovtek when I had a MG Head...
 
Aug 28, 2001 at 6:36 PM Post #15 of 25
Don't know too much about it myself, but if you do a search on Headwize using the terms 'wheatfield usb dac' in the Electronics & Accessories forum, there are several relevant threads...
 

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