[Sean H]

This might have been discussed before and this may end up being a dumb question from a newbie like me.

I have used this little gem in my audio system for about three months now and am really impressed by it. I'm wondering if it might be possible to use it as a phone amp using the Art's A-->D side. I could connect the analog outputs of my CDP to the analog inputs of the Art, then loop the Art's digital output to its digital input, then connect a pair of phones to the Art's analog outputs using a 1/4" right and left phone to a single 1/4" (or 1/8") phone plug adapter. The Art's analog output then has that gain dial which could act as a volume. I could select the 96 khz sampling rate and even use the tube warmth on the signal.

Is this possible? The thing is, the Art's analog output is a hot 7 volts. I haven't learned enough about headphones and all to know what kind of a voltage or wattage is kind of "standard" when driving headphones. Maybe this wouldn't even work. Any help?

 

[Tim D]

The Art D/IO has really improved my headphone setup as well, however I do not suggest using it in that configuration. You will need some DIYER expertise, but typically the output of a DAC is not designed to deliver the amount of current that a headphone demands, and as such it can possibly damage the unit.

BTW the specs say that the output impedance is 220 ohms, and obviously it is indeed 7 volts...but wheter or not this means anything in terms of being able to drive a headphone is a different matter, and something I would not risk.

However I HAVE done the following setup very shortly, which was my Digital out from soundcard to D/IO D/A to an adapter which accepted the miniplug from my Beyer DT931. It works...I would even say it works well enough to be extremely loud and driven with gusto. But I cannot say that means anything as to long-term reliability. I did this only to test shortly if it would work well with my soundcard, and it did.

However, it is a DAC, and as such you shouldn't use it as an amp as it has to do with varying output and input impedances and what it is designed to do or not do.

You will probably need more expertise DIY examination of the unit in order to know if it is safe.

So in summary, it may "work" but it is not designed as an amp, and as such you can subject the unit to damage. The good news however is that the Art D/IO will perform admirably in a headphone setup. IMO, I think it has qualities of being transparent and detailed that it would give HD600 a good boost such that comments about veils or darkness may be disregarded. It has dynamics to give AKG's enough boost such that comments about them being boring may be disregarded. And it has a certain timbral accuracy such that even Beyer DT931 annoyance from brightness (out of even higher output impedance amps) may even be disregarded. Yes I really do think the Art D/IO is just really just capable of being that terrific.

 

[Joseph Lau]

I think it has no problem on driving high impedance Headphone with no problem. Most high impedance headphone request very low current. Most of OP amps can delivery more than 10's ma current. It is far more enough than most high impedance Headphone need.
It you still worry about damage to you DA ? Add a Matching transformers on it . I had try to connect our new design Headphone converter on a SACD-777EX (Sony). I had test it with a Victor 32 Ohm 107 db Headphone. It can drive to very loud and safe. I had test it for 24 hours with no problem. It turn ratio is 5 to 1. So the impedance see by your DA will be 32 x 25 = 800 Ohm.
It is very close to 600 Ohm. So I think connect it to a 600 Ohm Headphone will be no harmful to your DA.

 

[Hirsch]

Joseph, thanks!

Sean,

I had a miniplug to RCA adapter around, and gave it a try on my computer DI/O. Works just fine (I was using my HD-560II's, but should work on the rest as well)! Another use found for that silly little box!

Not a bad little amp either! I was attempting to switch back and forth between the output of the DI/O, and running the output through a Creek OBH-11se. Couldn't hear a difference one way or another (limiting factor was source ran through NAD PP-1 phono amp...that's gotta go

My computer has been covering up just how bad it is)

 

[Sean H]

Hi Hirsch!

Nice to see you over here. Thanks for the reply here and to my other post. I hope to give the Art a brief try as an amp but will heed the concern from Tim. The Grado SR-60's I have are easy to drive and with the Art's output it shouldn't be a problem.

Your headphone system looks real nice. Tell me, do you find there to be a large difference between the 580 and 600? What is and how big are the differences? I see you own the Grado amp, but no Grado's? What is your impressionof this amp? Have you ever heard the EarMax? I'm real curious about the Ear Max, Corda and the Wheatfield HA-1. Any thoughts?

 

[Tim D]

A few things...your Grados will demand more current than the typical Beyer or Senn since it is lower impedance.

And also the input gain knob on your Art D/IO is just that. It controls input gain. At its minimum setting it is not zero volume, but no extra gain. But it is still possibly very LOUD at minimum volume. A real volume control will attenuate the signal, this is not what the D/IO's input gain control knob does however.

Soooo...be careful if you still decide on doing it...and make sure those Grado's aren't on your head...it might be unexpectedly loud.

This is just based on the fact that I HAD to have my computer mixer at near minimums...but even at the most excessive of digital attenuation I never heard my computer sound better.

 

[Hirsch]

Hi Sean,

Good to see you over here.

The difference between the 580 and 600 are small but noticeable. The "sound" is very similar, and the 580 is a quality can, but the 600 does it better. Slightly better clarity, slightly tighter bass...but all of those slight differences add up.

The Grado amp came about when I got the 580's, which came with Sennheiser's DSP Pro amp. To put it kindly, the DSP Pro sucks. A local audio dealer had a Grado RA-1 sitting on the shelf that he had gotten as a special order that fell through, and offered it to me at little over his cost. As soon as I heard the 580's through it, I knew it was a keeper. The Grado amp is perfectly happy driving Sennheisers, and that was the combo that got me interested in headphones as serious audio equipment. My "portable" headphone system is a Panasonic 470 CDP, Grado RA-1, and the 580's (the trick was to find a case that could hold the 580's, the Grado, and a decent set of interconnects).

A bit after I got the 580's, I found the 600's at a good price, and jumped at it. I almost sold the 580's, but wound up setting everything up in separate systems instead (my computer sound system is ART DI/O, Creek OBH-11se and the 560II's, which I've had for years). The one time I listened to Grado's, I liked the sound but found them uncomfortable to wear. Even so, every now and then a good price appears, and my resistance is wearing down...

I'm curious about the same three amps you are, as I've never heard any of them. They all look like quality products. However, I live about 15 min from David Berning, who makes the MicroZOTL. As soon as the money comes together, that's something I'm going to listen to very seriously.

 

[Sean H]

Ah, good points Tim. I was thinking of the Art's gain control as a volume, chalk it up to my inexperience in the techincal side of things. And you are right about the Grados, they are low impedence. Which makes me wonder, why is it that a phone like the Senn, which has a VERY high impedence, is harder to drive? I know I'm going to feel stupid after this one.

 

[Sean H]

Thanks for your impressions Hirsch. I'm really interested in hearing the 600's. Perhaps I need to give Headroom a call and try them, maybe an amp too. I want to see what a good headphone system can sound like, especially with this Art DI/O. If you get the chance to hear the MicroZOTL let me know how it sounds!!

I guess if I ever do decide that I want to or need to dump part of my main audio system for a phone system, that I want to have a pretty good little phone system. So the MicroZOTL, EM Pro and Wheatfield are definitely on my list, as well as many others.

 

[dngl]

Try some other headphones as well. You may not like the senn sound the best. Right now I acknowledge the accuracy of the 580s but am preferring the CD1.7ks... try out a bunch of phones. It'll open your eyes.

 

[ck42]

I had also thought about running the the ART's digi (tubed) output to the digi Input.

This would supposedly give the analog output the same tubed sound that would've gone out through the A/D process.

This *seems* totally feasible. Can someone confirm this works....works well? doesn't work?

After reading through this thread, I still don't know where things stand on driving the HD580s from the ART's analog outputs. Since I both have the 580s AND am seriously looking at getting the ART, I'd REALLY be interested in knowing if this actually works or not.

 

[Sean H]

As for using the Art in the looped digital fashion (analog to digital then digital to analog) it works great. I actually used the Art in this fashion in my speaker system for a couple weeks and enjoyed it. Surprisingly it sounded very good.

I have not tried to use the Art as a head amp yet, kind of leery after hearing the warnings. Others think it would be fine. I would be using Grado's so the low impedence kind of scares me. If I try it I will let you know. Let the forum know if you try it too.

 

[ck42]

Sean:

Thanks for that info!

I just found the ART at fullcompass and verified it for $122. I'm more than likely going to go ahead and buy it tonight...just waiting on the boss..err, I mean the wife to get home to give me approval

I'm going to fire off an email to ART themselves to get the full scoop...straight from the horses mouth. I'll post the info when/if they ever get back to me.

 

[Tim D]

The HD580's will work because of their impedance, but I don't know if it is good in the long-run. Also the D/IO is very loud with digital mixer controls near minimum from soundcard. It is going to be extremely loud out of the D/A side. The AD/DA Loop is not AS loud, but don't think you are going to get good volume control for reasons already stated.

Finally the AD/DA Loop is decent in terms of sound, but not if you want the D/IO as an extremely clean transparent revealing DAC. Of course it depends on the analog output being processed, but still the AD/DA process does add noise. It is still fun as a tube effect processor.

This isn't to say that the D/IO doesn't make a great clean tube effect processor...but when you use it as a pure D/AC you will hear the benefits and added transparency of 1 less AD/DA processor. So looping for the tube effect is indeed fun, and something you might do once in awhile perhaps for brittle sounding recordings that wouldn't mind a tube remastering job, but for good recordings, the D/IO as only a DAC will have it beat by far. So yah a looped D/IO is good...but a pure DAC D/IO can be better.

 

[ck42]

Tim:

"the D/IO is very loud with digital mixer controls near minimum from soundcard. "

Why? Are you saying that if I use my computer's soundcard's S/DPIF output that the analog output from the D/IO is going to be very loud? If so, is that because of the D/IO or something about the computer/soundcard's signal being hot?

Regarding the tube and the extra conversion in D/A: I'm more interested in clean reproduction...BUT, my interest have been peaked regarding tubes with cans. I realize that the tube 'warmth' and all that is due to imperfections introduced by tube amps. Is this "noise" that you refer to simply the effect of the tube or something beyond that? like the the extra D/A process that wouldn't be seen in a straight A/A tube amp?

The only reason I would want to construct this loop is to give me what I would hope to be a decent tube preamp so I can hear what I see so many talking about with regards to tube amps and cans. Is this not a good plan?