[jingles_97]

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Originally Posted by nullstring /img/forum/go_quote.gif niche market? Do you mean hi-fi in general as a niche market?

$1400 for a pair of headphones is niche market in my opinion. Hi-Fi, on the other hand, is a much more general term. Personally I have not heard the HD800 nor the HF2, and yet I ordered the HF2 because as you say it's a limited edition, and a contribution to this site, but I'll wait on the HD800.

 

[jsaliga]

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Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif How about Overbearing Self-Entitlement-Fi?

You can't possibly know what motivates people to buy any specific headphone. I was interested in HF2 not because I wanted another pair of headphones, but because I was interested in owning a keepsake from Head-Fi that had some special meaning to me. So to me the F1 mistake is a deal breaker, regardless of how the cans sound. I already own two pair of nice Grado phones, and didn't really need a third. I have remained silent on the issues up until now, but your rant has inspired me to respond.

That said, I see nothing wrong with people liking the HF2's for what they are. But they just aren't for me, and I'm not a whiny bitchy tantrum-throwing head-fier who just wants to complain because Grado didn't produce what I wanted. Why you feel it necessary to cast such a wide net over everyone who opted out of the HF2 or was disappointed in the way things went down is something of a mystery to me.

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Why do people feel like they're entitled to manufacturers giving them exactly what they want

How dare those pesky consumers? Who do they think they are anyway?

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Instead of wringing my hands and whining...<snip>...I don't discuss the product.

Not true. You never fail to miss an opportunity to bash the AKG K701.

--Jerome

 

[Drumonron]

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Originally Posted by Pyriel0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought the whole point of having a forum was to get BOTH the good and bad information about a product. It seems lately if anyone says something negative about a product, they are called a whiner (by a more aggressive whiner lol). If no bad reviews or thoughts were discussed by people that have used a product, then there would be no point for this forum to exist since every product would be the best ever.

I humbly and non-aggressively agree. One cannot have a discussion without accepting that there will be and must be different perspectives. This is why I like living in a free society that is open to general discussion. As long as the other perspective is not personal or in bad form.

 

[tenzip]

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Originally Posted by FooTemps /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HF-2 and HD800 have both come to light as somewhat controversial items recently. People are complaining about build materials of the HD800, others are complaining about the Head-F1 mistake. Thing is, in the end, everyone is just going to roll over belly up to Grado and Sennheiser. And after seeing the thread about poor driver matching, I have a feeling many more companies are in lockstep for moving over to profits over performance ala big business model... Anyone else have the feeling that companies will get bold and give us the finger eventually? Statement models used to be built with top of the line materials and engineering, now people will bite off your head for saying the HD800 is skimping on materials. There's also a Head-F1 defense force too. What's next?

I won't comment specifically on the HD800, as I doubt I'll ever own a higher end/more expensive headphone than the HF-2, and I haven't been following the trials and tribulations of the Senn, except in my peripheral vision.

As far as the HF-2, I see this as a huge embarrassment for Grado. I can see how it was missed, even though it shouldn't have been. Once accepted from the etcher/engraver, Grado had no recourse to ask for correct ones, and as everyone suspects he and Todd are operating on thinner than normal margins to get these to us, taking them all back and having them redone, or scrapping and manufacturing new just doesn't make sense.

Keep in mind that the HF-2 will actually hurt sales a bit in the short term, as people who might have bought, say, 325i or RS models, have bought these instead, and won't be buying those other phones, with their (potentially) higher profit margins. Keep in mind the $50 going to Head-Fi from 480 of these sales and $40 from the other 20. Keep in mind that short run, limited production model is ALWAYS more expensive (to produce) than an established, recurring production model. Keep in mind that economic flushing noise everyone has been hearing lately, and that funds for food, shelter, transportation, etc. is the priority for most folks, and that discretionary spending on fripperies such as headphones and that new phono cartridge is, for the vast, sane majority, severely curtailed. Keep in mind the above factors as you put yourself in Mr. Grado's shoes and make a decision that affects the immediate future of your business.

I'm not defending nor excusing the error or the 'fix', just explaining how it looks from my viewpoint.

As far as the 2dB driver "matching", well, that's just sad.

 

[krmathis]

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Originally Posted by paaj /img/forum/go_quote.gif With the HF2 a mistake was made, they acknowledged it but it is just too costly to fix for what I think was never meant to be a profitable project. As long as the sound is good I will be happy.

Someone made an error and they should suck up the extra cost to make it right.
Cost wise they (TTVJ and Grado) should also take into consideration loss of possible future sales of their products. Cause some potential future customers have lost faith in them and probably will never buy from them again, meaning less sales and revenue.

The Head-F1 HF-2 mistake is a deal breaker for me, since it is no longer the special pair of headphones it was meant to be. But I respect those who do not care about the looks and buy it for the sound.

 

[paaj]

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Originally Posted by Pyriel0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought the whole point of having a forum was to get BOTH the good and bad information about a product. ...

Yes it is, but starting a thread because a headphone uses silvery plastic instead of it's natural plastic color seems a bit too much for me. It won't be less durable, Sennheiser themselves say it is what they found sounded best.

And with the HF2, I think both sides have had their points made but Grado just can't fix it in the budget they've set.
I work in retail myself and while a bit different, and as much as we want to we just can't sell at the prices internet shops ask. Losing money on every sale is just not worth it. I understand it if Grado can't fix this HF2 run if they end this run with losses.

...
And yes, misspelling head-fi is a stupid mistake but in the end, for me, it is about the intention. It is still the head-fi limited run.

...
2dB driver matching!?! where does that come from, the iGrado is matched at 0.1dB?

 

[Berlioz]

The HD 800 was made with esoteric materials. Regardless of their cosmetic qualities, they were both expensive and difficult to work with. I doubt Sennheiser would have chosen such materials unless they provided a benefit in sound quality.

The HF-2 issue has been tossed back and forth so many times now. I'm not even going to comment on it.

The whiners are just spoiled. We are already getting headphones that are completely beyond the imagination of the typical person. These headphones are in a completely different league from those most people consider to be the best, e.g Bose, Monster, etc.

The idea that we are somehow reducing the quality of flagship headphones through our complacency, is ludicrous. These headphones are marketed at an extremely small population - us. Just look at the epic whinefest that broke out over the HF-2 error. Our standards are very high.

I think every audio company out there has some game plan that involves maximizing profit at the expense of production quality. I've seen it happen to a lot of other companies too. However, it just doesn't make any sense to do it with a flagship product. It would get torn apart and ravaged by the audio community.

Considering the consumer base, I don't think we have anything to worry about. As for other people though, I'm not sure. There was a time when a home stereo system was the third most expensive thing on a persons budget, after their house, and their car. Those days I think, are over.

 

[rds]

Having just received a pair of Ultrasone Pro 900, I can tell you the poor quality control and lack of aesthetic sense doesn't extend to all headphone manufacturers.

I hope other manufacturers take a cue from Ultrasone in terms of design and quality control, instead of giving us the tired excuse that everything must be sacrificed on the alter of sound quality.

I should add that the excellent design and execution of the pro 900 needs to be examined in person to be really appreciated.

 

[tenzip]

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Originally Posted by paaj /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... 2dB driver matching!?! where does that come from, the iGrado is matched at 0.1dB?

There's a thread somewhere saying that some manufacturers are "matching" drivers at 2dB or less. The OP of this thread mentioned it in his second or third post. I would find that absolutely unacceptable, but it doesn't apply to either of the models under discussion at this point, it was a side issue.

 

[Aimless1]

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Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Someone made an error and they should suck up the extra cost to make it right. Reality check. The HF-2 is already deeply discounted. Conservative estimates (retailer/manufacturer/fellow members) is that the HF-2 should fetch 33% - 50% more than it's asking price. Maybe the estimates are right, maybe wrong, but it seems the cans are worth much more than the asking price as is. Cost wise they (TTVJ and Grado) should also take into consideration loss of possible future sales of their products. Cause some potential future customers have lost faith in them and probably will never buy from them again, meaning less sales and revenue. Come now. In two years no one is going to care one way or the other. Since the cans by all reports sound so superb, this is a non issue other than to a wee minority, as witnessed by the very few who have cancelled their orders. The Head-F1 HF-2 mistake is a deal breaker for me, since it is no longer the special pair of headphones it was meant to be. But I respect those who do not care about the looks and buy it for the sound.

I guess this puts you in the wee small minority who are focused on aesthetics, not on sound quality. Nothing wrong with that, but some of us consider that superficial and shallow. But as you say, we're all entitled to our opinion.

 

[mypasswordis]

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Originally Posted by Berlioz /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HD 800 was made with esoteric materials. Regardless of their cosmetic qualities, they were both expensive and difficult to work with. I doubt Sennheiser would have chosen such materials unless they provided a benefit in sound quality.

Yes, plastic is very esoteric and hard to work with, as we know.

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Originally Posted by Berlioz The HF-2 issue has been tossed back and forth so many times now. I'm not even going to comment on it.

They made a mistake. It sucks.

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Originally Posted by Berlioz The whiners are just spoiled. We are already getting headphones that are completely beyond the imagination of the typical person. These headphones are in a completely different league from those most people consider to be the best, e.g Bose, Monster, etc.

Just because it's better than the stuff people are normally used to doesn't mean we have to accept anything less than a reasonable effort to make a product without flaws. Something I'm clearly not seeing here.

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Originally Posted by Berlioz The idea that we are somehow reducing the quality of flagship headphones through our complacency, is ludicrous. These headphones are marketed at an extremely small population - us. Just look at the epic whinefest that broke out over the HF-2 error. Our standards are very high.

Your level of complacency is ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Berlioz I think every audio company out there has some game plan that involves maximizing profit at the expense of production quality. I've seen it happen to a lot of other companies too. However, it just doesn't make any sense to do it with a flagship product. It would get torn apart and ravaged by the audio community.

Many companies produced and still produce statement products that only lose the companies money. These statement products are supposed to be an example of what can be accomplished with a no-corners-cut mentality.

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Considering the consumer base, I don't think we have anything to worry about. As for other people though, I'm not sure. There was a time when a home stereo system was the third most expensive thing on a persons budget, after their house, and their car. Those days I think, are over.

Your complacency doesn't help the cause. Why should we have to pay big bucks for things we know are flawed?

 

[mypasswordis]

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Originally Posted by Aimless1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess this puts you in the wee small minority who are focused on aesthetics, not on sound quality. Nothing wrong with that, but some of us consider that superficial and shallow. But as you say, we're all entitled to our opinion.

Way to take a dig at krmathis using an indirect ad hominem attack, combined with bandwagon effect.

 

[haloxt]

While we're whining, I'd like to whine about the Ultrasone Pro 900 s'more. When I unscrew the four screws and lift up the bufferboard from the inner cup and void my warranty, I see this transparent glue thing in very random places on the inner cup shell. What the hell is that glue? I really hope it is some kind of scientifically applied vibration dampening glue because it's in random locations, and if it is just random glue I'll be so mad I won't get another Ultrasone again. Also, what's with the two black circles covering the 2nd and 4th holes on the top of the bufferboard? Did they decide five big holes was too many and instead of making new bufferboards with less holes they put those black circles on them? And one final thing I'd like to whine about ^^, maybe Ultrasone should look into better quality cables, not sure if they have or not but if they're going to keep making statement headphones they should be able to advertise something better than plain OFC cables and "ultra-soft cable" (meaning literally soft).

rds, you posted before I read your post

. I agree there's certainly some good things about the Pro 900, but the black circles and the goop makes me wonder, also I don't really like to ask Ultrasone customer support questions, I tried to buy some screws from them because I screwed up the heads of some screws and they said sorry they don't sell any and I'd have to send it in to them to fix : [.

 

[GuyDebord]

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Originally Posted by FooTemps /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyone else have the feeling that companies will get bold and give us the finger eventually?

So what if this companies give us the finger, if they dont like to hear very influential public opinion its their problem!

Sadly, in capitalism, its not the public that nurtures the companies, but the other way around. And since we belong into that regime, those are the rules, and in this case, its Us that should give the finger to them if we want to, and believe me, if they want to grow and get stronger, they will listen, and what capitalist doesnt want that?

 

[jsaliga]

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Originally Posted by Aimless1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess this puts you in the wee small minority who are focused on aesthetics, not on sound quality.

Why must it be one or the other? And why do people seem to have a problem with others wanting and expecting both?

How is a brand new pair of HD650s with a tiny crack at the edge seam of an ear cup different from those have that have the finish marred by tool marks of the same size? Are certain types of flaws acceptable but others are not? Please note that I am not trying to pass judgment on people or their choices. I am just trying to figure out where some of you draw the line. I know that if I bought a brand new pair of Grado PS-1000s and they showed up with tool marks all over the finish I would send them back for replacement without hesitation.

--Jerome