[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by malldian /img/forum/go_quote.gif A few things here, to the OP: After hearing the AKG K1000, the sound stage and presentation was out of this world, I would certainly try to listen to a pair of those. To Peter: Remember something you keep bringing up - just because you hear the S Logic, doesn't mean it exists either. Understand that, however slim the possibility might be, you might be being duped into believing the marketing hype. And as you said before, that certainly may be a good thing! Your persistent fanboism and crusading isn't convincing anyone of anything - if you disagree, state it once and let it be after that.

I have thought of that. I wondered if I might be imagining the "surround effect". The only problem with this theory is that I know other people personally who are also able to hear the effect too. One, in particular, is a sound engineer with a very critical ear. And, without telling another person anything about the "surround effect", I let her listen and the first thing she said (after listening for only about a minute) had to do with one of the instruments being in front of her and then she mentioned that some other instrument was behind her and so on. She then wanted to know why she could hear these sounds in different places away from her head. This person is not an audiophile, actually never uses and could probably care less about headphones so, her being able to hear the "surround effect" is, it seems to me, a validity (in and of itself) of it's existence.

There have also been other posts here on Head-Fi where the posters have claimed to be able to hear it. I plan on doing some more testing with other people I know. When I introduce the Pro 750's to someone I say, "Tell me what you think of these headphones." I give them no clue about there being anything special about the sound.

So, if people I know personally have told me they hear it and other posters here on Head-Fi as well as in other articles I've read claim that they have heard it, then we must all be "fanboys" who are dealing with a mass imagination of the "surround effect". I think not.

In actuality, I have no idea why I and some others are capable of hearing the "surround effect" while you and some others seem to be incapable of hearing it. There is the consideration of the theories about which you have probably already read. Other than that consideration, once again, I do not know the reason for this.

I do know one thing for certain, I am not going to "stoop" to calling you a name because you are unable to hear the "surround effect", the way that you and a few others have called me a name ("fanboy") partly because I am able to hear it. And, yes, I do know that another reason I was being called this name is because I have written often about the Pro 750. In actuality, I have written about other topics in these forums. But, there is no doubt, and I will readily admit that the reason I have written often about the Pro 750 is because I really like it. Yes, I have heard some other audiophile headphones, and of the one's I've heard, I like the Pro 750 best (as you know). So, I've written about it whenever I thought it fit the specific requirements of someone who was looking for a headphone. There have been numerous times when I didn't mention the Pro 750 because it wasn't "right" for the particular requirements of someone searching for headphones.
Would you rather that I would have lied and suggested to someone that they purchase another headphone when I really thought that the Pro 750 was their best choice? My opinion is, if I did that, I would be hypocritical. But, there are some on Head-Fi (and you may be one of them) who think I should be hypocritical in this way, just so I can "fit in" with certain other Head-Fi members.
I do not work that way. I state what I believe even if my belief goes against popular opinion. When you read one of my posts, you might disagree with me (which is fine with me), but one thing is certain: You will know exactly "where I stand".

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif there are some on Head-Fi (and you may be one of them) who think I should be hypocritical in this way, just so I can "fit in" with certain other Head-Fi members

Peter:

Hey, let me stand up for Matt (malldian), not that he needs me too. I assure you he is not "one of them" (if indeed there are any "of them").

The young man is as deep a thinker as we've got here, highly analytical with sharp ears and sharp insights. He has no interest in "fitting in", only seeking out the audio truth.

If he tells us to listen to K1000s or whatever, I'm going to do it, and thank him for his advice.

-- Larry

 

[eruditass]

ultrasone's test cd is binaural so it shouldn't even be mentioned.

i like my dt880s because i can wear them however i want, like when im laying down sometimes i wear them differently.

wasnt s logic some old sound card manufacturer?

ULE is dumb at least from what I have learned from my computer engineering major. s-logic however sounds like a great idea and i would love to try them out. I doubt the surround sound but don't doubt the affect it has on timbre, sonic experience, and lower volumes

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Peter: Hey, let me stand up for Matt (malldian), not that he needs me too. I assure you he is not "one of them" (if indeed there are any "of them"). The young man is as deep a thinker as we've got here, highly analytical with sharp ears and sharp insights. He has no interest in "fitting in", only seeking out the audio truth. If he tells us to listen to K1000s or whatever, I'm going to do it, and thank him for his advice. -- Larry

It was never my intention to take anything away from malldian's advice about the K1000's. I understand they are incredible headphones.
There is a certain level of frustration when one is severely misunderstood. And, within his comment there was a minor inference of my supposedly being a so called "fanboy" which, simply stated is absolutely not true.
A "fanboy" never doubtfully questions anything about the source of his or her idolatry and a "fanboy" will always praise every aspect of his or her "idol". If, indeed I am a "fanboy" I have broken both of those rules. And, wavoman, you are witness to one of those events when I joined in on the questioning of the validity of the answer given to us by Ultrasone concerning the different Pro and Proline 750 pads and I proposed a seemingly valid theory concerning what actually may have happened regarding the different pad sizes.
Also, I have on a number of occasions broken the second rule of not 'praising every aspect of his or her "idol"' when I have stated (in essence) that I can not comment nor suggest or recommend any headphone made by Ultrasone (or any other manufacturer) that I have not heard. If I were truly a "fanboy" (of Ultrasone) I would have said that what ever Ultrasone manufactures is great. The truth is, I've never said that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by DoomzDayz /img/forum/go_quote.gif ultrasone's test cd is binaural so it shouldn't even be mentioned. i like my dt880s because i can wear them however i want, like when im laying down sometimes i wear them differently. wasnt s logic some old sound card manufacturer? ULE is dumb at least from what I have learned from my computer engineering major. s-logic however sounds like a great idea and i would love to try them out. I doubt the surround sound but don't doubt the affect it has on timbre, sonic experience, and lower volumes

For the purposes of my report of the Pro 750's, I listened to the Ultrasone Demo CD minimally but it certainly was not my only audio source. I had several other sources, most of which were 2-channel stereo (which were not binaural) sources. I also utilized DVD movies without using the Dolby Headphone setting or any type of similar setting. Also utilized were "original" recordings with which I was very familiar from a production standpoint.
I agree that Beyerdynamic makes excellent headphones and I agree that the so called "sweet spot" is probably easier to find and use on the Beyerdynamics compared to the Ultrasone Pros. Come to think of it, I think I've never lain down while wearing the Proline 750 (If I have, it's been very minimally). I'll have to try it sometime.
ULE is dumb? I certainly hope not. But, honestly, I don't know if it's valid.
You doubt the S-Logic surround effect? From what I've been given to understand, you will either be able to hear it or you won't whether you doubt it or believe in it doesn't matter. It's not like "Tinker Bell" from Peter Pan where if the children believe in her she will fly again.

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif By the way, I find the dt990 to sound tipped up and sibilant. But, I suppose if I only compared the dt990 to the Ultrasone 750 like you they would not sound so tipped up.

Man, I was munching popcorn like crazy and then: Zing!

Good stuff.

 

[silverrain]

 

[moonboy403]

Just a thought and genuine questions:
1) Wouldn't having instrument playing BEHIND you be weird?
2) When was the last time a seat is available in the middle of the stage?
3) Isn't it only natural to have all instruments playing in front of you with ambient sound possibly coming from behind you?

I hear sound coming from behind me all the time using different headphones, just not the instruments themselves.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Man, I was munching popcorn like crazy and then: Zing! Good stuff.

Actually, I heard the Beyerdynamics before I heard the Ultrasones. I compared other headphones with each other (which initially included the DT770's) before the Ultrasones were used in the comparison. And, the first Ultrasones I heard were not the Proline 750's. The first pair I heard were the Proline 650's and they were not burned in. Consequently, my initial impression was that their sound seemed out of balance but there was something about their sound that somehow made me curious to hear them more after they had been burned in. I didn't fully realize what that was at that time. I came back to them after they had been burned in about a week later and found that I liked them more than I had upon the first listening. But, then later I found out I liked the 750's much more than the 650's.
Actually, the first brand / model comparison I did was between the AKG K701 and the DT 770 Pro.



Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just a thought and genuine questions: 1) Wouldn't having instrument playing BEHIND you be weird? 2) When was the last time a seat is available in the middle of the stage? 3) Isn't it only natural to have all instruments playing in front of you with ambient sound possibly coming from behind you? I hear sound coming from behind me all the time using different headphones, just not the instruments themselves.

In item #1 you wrote:
"Wouldn't having instrument playing BEHIND you be weird?"
Then, in the last paragraph you wrote:
"I hear sound coming from behind me all the time using different headphones, just not the instruments themselves."

In a way, these two statements seem contradictory to each other. Perhaps I am misinterpreting them.
In item #1 you seem to be indicating that you've never heard sound behind you from the audio playing through a pair of headphones.
And, then, in the last paragraph you wrote that you have heard "sound coming from behind" you "all the time".
Another interpretation, I suppose, would be that you are asking me if I think it's weird to hear sounds behind me (with headphones) even though you have heard sounds behind you (with headphones) yourself.
Either way, there are some who like this type of sound stage (where the listener is in the middle of the stage among the musicians) and some who do not. For those who do not, the Pro 750's as well as in any other headphone with a similar sound stage would not be a good choice.
Just out of curiosity, what other headphones have enabled you to hear sounds in the audio coming from behind you? I have been told that the K1000's enable the listener to hear sounds coming from in front of them but not from behind them. (I have not yet heard the K1000.)

 

[spinali]

This isn't a "weird" question, but one answer is decidedly "unweird."

Try an experiment. Listen to a track on your open headphones; now, turn on your floor speakers. Done just right, you definitely get a surround-sound experience, but with a catch, of course. The surround effect occurs as a result of the floor speaker sound leaking into your open phones, adding a dimension to the sound.

It's not perfect, and playing music this way is rather pointless in the long run - but it's an interesting effect.

I haven't heard the effect yet on headphones, and it appears that it can be subtle, dependent on positioning, and for some listeners non-existent. Personally, I think soundstage is far more important, but to each his own.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do know one thing for certain, I am not going to "stoop" to calling you a name because you are unable to hear the "surround effect", the way that you and a few others have called me a name ("fanboy") partly because I am able to hear it. And, yes, I do know that another reason I was being called this name is because I have written often about the Pro 750. In actuality, I have written about other topics in these forums. But, there is no doubt, and I will readily admit that the reason I have written often about the Pro 750 is because I really like it. Yes, I have heard some other audiophile headphones, and of the one's I've heard, I like the Pro 750 best (as you know). So, I've written about it whenever I thought it fit the specific requirements of someone who was looking for a headphone. There have been numerous times when I didn't mention the Pro 750 because it wasn't "right" for the particular requirements of someone searching for headphones. Would you rather that I would have lied and suggested to someone that they purchase another headphone when I really thought that the Pro 750 was their best choice? My opinion is, if I did that, I would be hypocritical. But, there are some on Head-Fi (and you may be one of them) who think I should be hypocritical in this way, just so I can "fit in" with certain other Head-Fi members. I do not work that way. I state what I believe even if my belief goes against popular opinion. When you read one of my posts, you might disagree with me (which is fine with me), but one thing is certain: You will know exactly "where I stand".

Written often about the PL750? Is that a comment you would like us to take seriously Peter? The reason you have been labeled, rightfully so, an Ultrasone, specifically PL750, fanboy is because at least 98% of the posts you have constructed on this forum in the last two months have been you repeating over and over and over again the same exact thing in each thread you enter. We understand you like Ultrasones. We understand you like S-Logic, whatever that may be. We understand you really, really love the PL750. Anyone that is on this forum at least once a day already recognizes you as the penultimate fan of the PL750. When I'm in the main forum, and I see "last post by Peter Pinna" tagged to a thread, I already know what's coming before I even click to read your reply.

The frustration you are receiving from various members of the community lies in the fact that you have very little experience in the realm of headphones, I've seen your list, yet you continue to go on and on about how great the PL750 supposedly is. Then you try to back up your lack of experience by talking about your sound engineer friends, as if that lends you or your stance any credibility whatsoever. Do you not see the issue with that? We understand that the PL750 is the greatest thing your ears have ever experienced, you make that quite apparent as often as possible, but that's quite obviously because you have not experienced an incredible multitude of headphones that are currently available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif In item #1 you wrote: "Wouldn't having instrument playing BEHIND you be weird?" Then, in the last paragraph you wrote: "I hear sound coming from behind me all the time using different headphones, just not the instruments themselves." In a way, these two statements seem contradictory to each other. Perhaps I am misinterpreting them. In item #1 you seem to be indicating that you've never heard sound behind you from the audio playing through a pair of headphones. And, then, in the last paragraph you wrote that you have heard "sound coming from behind" you "all the time". Another interpretation, I suppose, would be that you are asking me if I think it's weird to hear sounds behind me (with headphones) even though you have heard sounds behind you (with headphones) yourself. Either way, there are some who like this type of sound stage (where the listener is in the middle of the stage among the musicians) and some who do not. For those who do not, the Pro 750's as well as in any other headphone with a similar sound stage would not be a good choice. Just out of curiosity, what other headphones have enabled you to hear sounds in the audio coming from behind you? I have been told that the K1000's enable the listener to hear sounds coming from in front of them but not from behind them. (I have not yet heard the K1000.)

No, these two comments are clearly not contradictory, and there's no room for multiple interpretations regarding his comments.

In his first point he states ""Wouldn't having instrument playing BEHIND you be weird?" Please observe the bolded word. The clear answer, IMO, is YES. It is most definitely weird to hear instruments coming from behind you. Nowhere does he state, as you imply he did, that he's "never heard sound behind you from the audio playing through a pair of headphones." In fact he never even used the word never. I don't know why you thought throwing that absolute in to the equation would be of benefit to the discussion? He clearly says that he has heard sound(s) coming from behind him, just simply not an instrument.

You find that type of soundstage, something you probably attribute to S-Logic, appealing. No problem. What ever floats your boat. For the sake of discussion though, when was the last time you were ever allowed to sit in the middle of the stage for a music performance?

 

[luoo1984]

ATH-DWL5000

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just out of curiosity, what other headphones have enabled you to hear sounds in the audio coming from behind you? I have been told that the K1000's enable the listener to hear sounds coming from in front of them but not from behind them. (I have not yet heard the K1000.)

Senns HD280, Head direct RE1/2, Denon D2000, and Stax SR-Lambda.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Written often about the PL750? Is that a comment you would like us to take seriously Peter? The reason you have been labeled, rightfully so, an Ultrasone, specifically PL750, fanboy is because at least 98% of the posts you have constructed on this forum in the last two months have been you repeating over and over and over again the same exact thing in each thread you enter. We understand you like Ultrasones. We understand you like S-Logic, whatever that may be. We understand you really, really love the PL750. Anyone that is on this forum at least once a day already recognizes you as the penultimate fan of the PL750. When I'm in the main forum, and I see "last post by Peter Pinna" tagged to a thread, I already know what's coming before I even click to read your reply. The frustration you are receiving from various members of the community lies in the fact that you have very little experience in the realm of headphones, I've seen your list, yet you continue to go on and on about how great the PL750 supposedly is. Then you try to back up your lack of experience by talking about your sound engineer friends, as if that lends you or your stance any credibility whatsoever. Do you not see the issue with that? We understand that the PL750 is the greatest thing your ears have ever experienced, you make that quite apparent as often as possible, but that's quite obviously because you have not experienced an incredible multitude of headphones that are currently available. No, these two comments are clearly not contradictory, and there's no room for multiple interpretations regarding his comments. In his first point he states ""Wouldn't having instrument playing BEHIND you be weird?" Please observe the bolded word. The clear answer, IMO, is YES. It is most definitely weird to hear instruments coming from behind you. Nowhere does he state, as you imply he did, that he's "never heard sound behind you from the audio playing through a pair of headphones." In fact he never even used the word never. I don't know why you thought throwing that absolute in to the equation would be of benefit to the discussion? He clearly says that he has heard sound(s) coming from behind him, just simply not an instrument. You find that type of soundstage, something you probably attribute to S-Logic, appealing. No problem. What ever floats your boat. For the sake of discussion though, when was the last time you were ever allowed to sit in the middle of the stage for a music performance?

Subtle, your post, IMO, seems very argumentative. It seems as though you are arguing just for the sake of arguing and finding fault. I sincerely mean no disrespect. But even though you seem to me to be very argumentative, I will attempt to address your comments to me.

I have stated in the past that my audiophile headphone experience is not nearly as extensive as my "studio grade" headphone experience and also not nearly as strong as the audiophile experience of some Head-Fi members. You seem to be criticizing me for something which I have readily stated a few times previously.

What is the difference, subjectively speaking, between your "98%" (and I don't know if that is accurate) and my "often". What does "often" mean to you? It could mean 98% (or what ever the actual percentage) as far as I understand the subjective definition of "often". If it is actually 98%, that's fine with me, or if it's 90% that's fine with me too. Whatever the actual percentage is fine with me. I really don't care.

You are much more certain of your interpretation of the other poster's comments than I am of my interpretation of their comments. I was asking him what he meant because his comments in one particular regard seemed contradictory to me. Notice I used the word "seemed". I did not say that they definitely were contradictory. And, in essence, I was asking the poster for a clarification.

Your very last question, IMO, has absolutely nothing to do with someone's preferences regarding how they prefer to listen to music via headphones. But, the answer to that question as it applies to me, specifically, is, several times. I am a professional musician.

I want you to know that I try to be understanding of everyone's point of view. I guess, you, subtle, will have to forgive me for my enthusiasm for the Pro 750. I mean absolutely no offense by my comments regarding the 750. I'm simply trying to share what I believe is very good news about these headphones. Perhaps I am somewhat overly enthusiastic according to you and a few others. But, I guarantee you that I am sincere in that enthusiasm. I honestly wish I could be as enthusiastic or more so about another pair of headphones because they would be an incredible sounding pair of headphones.

I've yet to hear Stax headphones and some others. Actually, even in the Ultrasone line, there are several I haven't heard including the Edition 9. Give me time, maybe I will "get around" to being enthusiastic about a pair of headphones about which you are also enthusiastic!

 

[greggf]

Does anybody else think that this is all just an act?

You know, like Dinner Theater?

 

[Peter Pinna]

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna:
Just out of curiosity, what other headphones have enabled you to hear sounds in the audio coming from behind you? I have been told that the K1000's enable the listener to hear sounds coming from in front of them but not from behind them. (I have not yet heard the K1000.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Senns HD280, Head direct RE1/2, Denon D2000, and Stax SR-Lambda.

Interesting. Of those brands of headphones, I've only heard Senns but not the HD280. Can someone who has experience with one or more of the headphones which moonboy403 has mentioned and the Pro 750's comment as to whether you agree (or not) with his opinion that these headphones present a somewhat binauaral sound stage (Moonboy, please correct this if that is not what you are indicating) similar (or perhaps more so when compared) to the sound stage of the Pro 750? (Or, whatever comment you would care to make concerning a comparison between these headphones.)
Moonboy403, if you have answered this next question previously, forgive me for asking you again, but have you actually heard the Pro 750?