[philodox]

jan should have been more clear about the patent

pink should have been more honest when responding to his email

jan could have approached it in a better way in his post on headwize

pink should not post in the forums when he is drunk

...I think that you both made mistakes here, and it all started due to a misunderstanding, not because of any malignant intent

"can't we all just get along?"

[edit: jans post was on headwize, not head-fi... just noticed that I mussed that up

]

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Earwax I would have assumed that the copyright disclaimer applied to the text and diagrams of the articles published. I didn't see anything there to indicate that the circuits descibed in that article was patented and I would have made the same mistake that Pink did in thinking it was OK to build the circuit, just like other DIYers build and sell the CMOY amp designs.

And you would have been right... copyright only applies to the text, diagrams, and PCB artwork. Designs themselves are not copywritable.

 

[XXhalberstramXX]

Quote:

Extremely incorrect assumption. Bring a cannibal anywhere in the western society. He might expect to kill some people and eat them and get away with it not knowing the laws. That doesn't mean at all he didn't break the law, or that he is not punishable for what in this (for him odd) society represents a crime.

cannibals typically only eat members of the human race during acts of war (martial law does not = law). c'mon guys, lets be culturally sensitive to cannibals!

point taken, however. how was i to know that bribing a polic officer was against the law?

 

[strohmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Earwax I would have assumed that the copyright disclaimer applied to the text and diagrams of the articles published. I didn't see anything there to indicate that the circuits descibed in that article was patented and I would have made the same "mistake" that Pink did in thinking it was OK to build the circuit, just like other DIYers build and sell the CMOY-design amps.

Mm, good point. Though I think if Pink had seen that it still would have given him pause.

Anyways, it all comes down to the patent and what Jan decides to do with it. He should have stated that the design was patented, but Pink probably should have checked either way.

But now I think we're going in circles. ^_^

 

[gsferrari]

Pink Floyd -> I think I am incapable of building a crossfeed circuit myself. Would you be kind enough as to build one for me, without the case and ship it to me? I would gladly pay for the parts, shipping and your time. Thank you

I dont see anything wrong with this. I request a service, I get what I want, we're not breaking any law because its not something I buy off the internet or through retail...

He is doing a service to those who dont want to do it themselves.

I think some people are blowing this waaay over the top with legal jargon. Im gonna get one built by PinkFloyd or just about anybody else when the time comes...try and stop me

How come the PPA doesnt have such tight restrictions? I think the PPA is a bigger contribution to audio than the crossfeed...

 

[TrevorNetwork]

I'm agreeing with Philodox on this one. Frankly, I think both Jan and Pinkie handled this matter unprofessionally. I will say this however, I've not lost respect for either of you. We all have our bad days. I'm German btw, and have been called worse by Brits. Heck, I've been called worse by British relatives, and Polish classmates, and... You can see where this is going. I think there were many broken connections here. Jan, and Pinkie your contributions to this community are many, and your input here adds much value to the forum. As head-fi'ers let's all learn from this one, and be a bit more mindful of the things we do and say. On, and off the forum.

That's all I have to say.

Trevor

 

[BoyElroy]

Quote:

I'm agreeing with Philodox on this one. Frankly, I think both Jan and Pinkie handled this matter unprofessionally. I will say this however, I've not lost respect for either of you. We all have our bad days. I'm German btw, and have been called worse by Brits. Heck, I've been called worse by British relatives, and Polish classmates, and... You can see where this is going. I think there were many broken connections here. Jan, and Pinkie your contributions to this community are many, and your input here adds much value to the forum. As head-fi'ers let's all learn from this one, and be a bit more mindful of the things we do and say. On, and off the forum. That's all I have to say. Trevor

Well said, Trevor. I'm in total agreement with you on this and hopefully both parties will be able to get past this quickly and return to contributing to our mutually obsessive hobby!

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by gsferrari How come the PPA doesnt have such tight restrictions? I think the PPA is a bigger contribution to audio than the crossfeed...

The PPA, MINT, and META42 are protected in different ways. There are no patents involved, but in this case there are trademarks and copyright. You can build a circuit on protoboard using the META42 circuit and sell it, but you can't call it a META42 because Tangent uses that as a trademark, referring to a specific circuit board layout. He has made noise about people doing this very thing in the past. Similarly, he is also using "PPA" and "MINT" as trademarks. (To my knowledge, none of these are registered trademarks, but that doesn't matter in the US.) You also can't reproduce the PCB layout of any of these devices and sell it yourself, even if you call it something different, because the layout is copyrighted.

You may be surprised, but this means you can't build an amp using the MINT circuit on protoboard, put it in a mint tin, and call it a MINT (even though it's in a mint tin!!!). If you try, you'll likely get hassled by Tangent, who quite fairly needs to protect his investment in buying and stocking the MINT PCBs.

You can, if you want, take the PPA/MINT/META42 circuit, do your own PCB or protoboard layout, call it something different, and sell it for a profit. Nothing is stopping you from doing this.

 

[Nisbeth]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wodgy Similarly, he is also using "PPA" and "MINT" as trademarks. (To my knowledge, none of these are registered trademarks, but that doesn't matter in the US.)

Most (all?) European countries accepts to ways of acquiring a protected trademark. Either by actively registering it (®) with the local equivalent of the USPTO or by using it (™). If you can prove that you were the first to use a certain name (such as "META42"), then it's your trademark and you can legally enforce your sole right to use it.


/U.

</interrruption>

 

[TrevorNetwork]

My fellow head-fi'ers let's stop with all the trademark / copyright enforcing posts. They only serve to upset the persons involved, and cause friction amongst other head-fi'ers. To be frank, this aspect has been discussed to death. Let's take the apology at face value, mend some bridges, and enjoy this great hobby. Leave it up to Jan and Pinkie to discuss any ramifications that may come about from this transgression. I do sincerely hope however that apologies are accepted, and life can go on sans lawyers.

Trevor

 

[Wodgy]

We have the same thing in the US. A registered trademark (R) is "iron-clad" in the sense that it cannot be challenged, except with great difficulty. An implicit trademark (TM) is much easier to challenge, but if it stands, it's just as good as a registered one. Companies that don't have a prayer of successfully registering their trademark (e.g. "Word" for "Microsoft Word") often get away with implicit trademarks because no one has enough money or lawyers to go after them.

Edit: Trevor, I think a lot of engineering types around here probably find the discussion interesting. We don't usually think about any of this stuff until it bites us in the butt. I've personally been burned in the past by a large company on patent issues, which is why I started reading about this in the first place.

 

[TrevorNetwork]

Wodgy:

Understood, put perhaps we can start a new thread for this rather than posting within this thread. I'm not sure I feel that copyright law has a place in this thread. It is interesting for sure, but perhaps you can write a thread informing us of what you've learned. I am not patronizing you, so please don't take it that way.

Cheers!

Trevor

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally posted by philodox jan should have been more clear about the patent pink should have been more honest when responding to his email jan could have approached it in a better way in his post on headwize pink should not post in the forums when he is drunk ...I think that you both made mistakes here, and it all started due to a misunderstanding, not because of any malignant intent "can't we all just get along?" [edit: jans post was on headwize, not head-fi... just noticed that I mussed that up ]

It's probably going to be tough now, but bandwaggoning aside (you're fools, by the way... you know who you are) the above is what it boils down to. I'd like to see things go back to the way they were, that while Jan may build the full fat versions, Pinkie continues to produce the entry-level 'lite' versions.


Pinkie's posts while on the sauce may nto be as upparnt sa mine, it's still pretty damned obvious. He shouldn't post while in that state (especially if the position is potentially explosive), but if he makes that mistake there's no need to pile in with the baiting either.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally posted by bangraman It's probably going to be tough now, but bandwaggoning aside (you're fools, by the way... you know who you are) the above is what it boils down to. I'd like to see things go back to the way they were, that while Jan may build the full fat versions, Pinkie continues to produce the entry-level 'lite' versions. Pinkie's posts while on the sauce may nto be as upparnt sa mine, it's still pretty damned obvious. He shouldn't post while in that state (especially if the position is potentially explosive), but if he makes that mistake there's no need to pile in with the baiting either.

I agree there Bangraman, the drinking and the baiting fuelled a very negative response from me and I was pretty taken aback when I read my posts this morning. It's easy to forget that everyone here is real when you've had a drink and even easier to type in comments you'll regret the next day

There will be no more posts from me when I've been drinking. I'm working on stopping the booze altogether as that seems the sensible solution.

Mike.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally posted by ipodstudio If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you But make allowance for their doubting too, If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!" If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much, If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son! "If" by Rudyard Kipling Don't know why, but this poem just leapt to mind whilst reading these two threads, so I thought I'd post it. Made me feel better.

"It's easy to grin, when your ship has come in
and you've got the stock market beat.
But a man worth his while, is a man who can smile,
when his pants are too tight in the seat"

Judge Smales - Caddyshack

Just a little humor for a thread that needs it badly.