Apology to Jan Meier
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PinkFloyd

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My apologies for calling you a "Kraut" and a "German *******" in your thread Jan. I was, quite literally, p*ssed in both senses of the word, both drunk and upset.... not the ideal combination.

I was upset due to the fact that thread had been active for some time and I wasn't even aware of it. You talk about "gentlemen" and "integrity" etc. yet you post all this stuff to head-fi and don't notify me to the fact. I was made aware of the thread and looked at it and noticed I was being slagged off by half of head-fi..... I think you'd be a bit taken aback if that happened to you?

Anyway..... I apologise for the German remarks. Thank god you are Dutch otherwise you'd be pretty offended


Now to the crossfeed device. I make these for head-fi members on request, for the price of parts, postage and packing. I am not a commercial business and I make approximately 1 crossfeed per month.

From your comments I think you assume that I am running a factory and producing thousands of these things. I'm sorry to disappoint you Jan but crossfeed is not "that" popular. I make them (made them) as a favour to head-fi members on a hobbyist basis.

The talk of lawsuits is ridiculous. What are you going to sue me for? soldering a few capacitors together for head-fiers who are unable to construct a crossfeed for themselves for the cost of parts?

I quote you from your thread "But just be assured, anybody is free to use my designs, as long as it's for non-commercial use." I am not "assured" that this is the case Jan otherwise you wouldn't be making such a song and dance over this.

Maybe you feel that I have been taking away business from you now you are producing your crossfeed?..... well, since you introduced your crossfeed for sale I have made 5 crossfeeds for head-fi members...... as I say "crossfeed" is not in huge demand and you're not selling many units for that reason....... "not" because you're losing out to any competition that may be out there.

Sure I used your design (that you made public) in early crossfeeds and I clearly stated that on my website.... here is the archive: http://web.archive.org/web/200302142...eak/x-feed.htm

As you say "But just be assured, anybody is free to use my designs, as long as it's for non-commercial use." Well, I used it....... non-commercially........ and built it up for people for the cost of parts, what problem do you have with that?

I don't quite understand why you put this circuit in the public domain and tell people they can build it and then you turn around and cry "foul play" posting pictures of a crossfeed covered in glue saying it's your circuit..... erm "yes" it's your circuit, the one you say is free for non commercial use.

Considering I am not a business and am making these at the request of head-fiers on a hobbyist basis I can't understand why this is a problem to you? Sure, If I was a business and was producing these en mass and making a profit I could sympathise with you but the fact I actually "lose" money making these surely shows you I am not making these as a business.... this is a hobby fuelled by my passion for Hi-Fi.... this is "not" a money making venture fuelled by greed.

If this upsets you Jan then I strongly suggest you withdraw your circuit from the public domain and withdraw your statement "But just be assured, anybody is free to use my designs, as long as it's for non-commercial use." You are giving the go ahead to anybody who wants to build your circuit by publishing your circuit and saying it's ok to build it for "non commercial" use. As I say...... you obviously assume I am a commercial enterprise, I've got news for you Jan....... I am not.

Could you please contact me via e-mail so we can sort this out and establish exactly what your grievance is? I'm more than happy to refuse to build crossfeeds for head-fiers for the cost of parts and postage if that's what you wish.

All the best.

Mike.
 
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minya

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You type very, very well when drunk.

And whatever the case may be, you should be held accountable for your actions, drunk or not.

- Chris
 
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NotoriousBIG_PJ

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Are you implying that anyone can sell something that someone else owns a patent for as long as they don't make money off of it. Give me a break...

Biggie.
 
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strohmie

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Quote:

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
As you say "But just be assured, anybody is free to use my designs, as long as it's for non-commercial use." Well, I used it....... non-commercially........ and built it up for people for the cost of parts, what problem do you have with that?


Again, I'll go back to what I posted in the last thread.

Part of the reason behind getting protection for his (Jan's) design is so that he can distribute it as he sees fit. If Jan wants to sell his patented items at cost, that's his prerogative. If he wants to charge 500 times what it's worth, that's his prerogative. If he wants to sell the rights to a big-name company, that's his prerogative.

Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor (sic), infringes the patent. -- Title 35, Part III, Chapter 28 (note this is US patent law, but I assume it's similar in the European Union)


Distribution without Jan's authority, profit or no profit, is a violation of patent law. Even if it was just five customers, that's five potential customers that Jan loses, even if his crossfeed isn't available as a standalone product as you built it. If you were to take a patented product by any major corporation, built reproductions of it and sold them at cost, and they found out, you'd get sued into the ground.
 
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archosman

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Settle this matter person-to-person. After that little tirade yesterday no one wants to see that happen again. You're 43... act like it.
 
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fiddler

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I'd like to believe you Pinkie, but the same Wayback Machine also says this:

http://web.archive.org/web/200306292...eak/x-feed.htm

That's from June, 4 months after the one you posted. You no longer mention the circuit's origins in this particular "snapshot". I suppose you're going to say that you were using a brand new, original circuit by this point. However the problem is that the one Jan opened up was in the Hammond enclosure, and was still using the Meier circuit. Your website in June did not feature any images of the Hammond version (the X-Feed-S). It therefore seems as though the Hammond revision happened at an even later date, as shown on your current website.
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. You acknowledged Jan Meier for 4 months, what happened after that?
 
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reeseboisse

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Quote:

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Anyway..... I apologise for the German remarks. Thank god you are Dutch otherwise you'd be pretty offended




I think you still managed to offend a few people.
 
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PinkFloyd

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Quote:

Originally posted by NotoriousBIG_PJ
Are you implying that anyone can sell something that someone else owns a patent for as long as they don't make money off of it. Give me a break...

Biggie.



I'm certainly not implying that. Let me give you a scenario, you hear about a crossfeed circuit but you can't build it yourself so you ask someone to build it for you. That person builds the crossfeed for you and charges you for the parts and shipping. Surely that is the same as if you had built it yourself?

You mentioned the word "sell" I have never sold a crossfeed, I build them for people as a hobby.. there is a big difference.

All the best.

Mike.
 
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fiddler

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Quote:

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
You mentioned the word "sell" I have never sold a crossfeed, I build them for people as a hobby.. there is a big difference.


You're charging people money for it. That's called selling. You don't have his permission... so it's a stolen design. You're cutting into his sales by selling a product with a design that you stole from him in the first place... How can you not see the problem with that?
 
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strohmie

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Quote:

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I'm certainly not implying that. Let me give you a scenario, you hear about a crossfeed circuit but you can't build it yourself so you ask someone to build it for you. That person builds the crossfeed for you and charges you for the parts and shipping. Surely that is the same as if you had built it yourself?


No, those two scenarios are not the same.

Quote:

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
You mentioned the word "sell" I have never sold a crossfeed, I build them for people as a hobby.. there is a big difference.


You don't seem to get it. No matter how you word the scenario, by law it is a patent violation. If a person can build the circuit for *their own use* then it is acceptable. But advertising an item based on someone else's work whether for free or for profit, is still illegal.


This is a different set of laws, but take for example that disclaimer you hear at some point during sports broadcasts or movies -- "any rebroadcast without express written permission is prohibited." This situation is parallel, in that you are reproducing something without consent. Someone can open their own movie theater with free admission and simply play DVDs they own for the crowd, but just because it's non-profit doesn't make it legal.

*The act of reproduction without consent takes away business from the owners of the copyrighted or patented product.* I don't care if you only did it five times. You are in the wrong here.
 
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PinkFloyd

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Quote:

Originally posted by fiddler
I'd like to believe you Pinkie, but the same Wayback Machine also says this:

http://web.archive.org/web/200306292...eak/x-feed.htm

That's from June, 4 months after the one you posted. You no longer mention the circuit's origins in this particular "snapshot". I suppose you're going to say that you were using a brand new, original circuit by this point. However the problem is that the one Jan opened up was in the Hammond enclosure, and was still using the Meier circuit. Your website in June did not feature any images of the Hammond version (the X-Feed-S). It therefore seems as though the Hammond revision happened at an even later date, as shown on your current website.
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. You acknowledged Jan Meier for 4 months, what happened after that?


OK Fiddler, I can clear this matter up right now. I think everyone knows that I do not profit from building crossfeeds on request and this whole scenario will now end as I will not be making any more. I have nothing to lose as I don't make any money from them so I'ts not going to affect me in any way, I'm sure there are other builders out there who can make crossfeeds on request.

Yes, I did acknowledge Jan and I assumed everyone thought it was common knowledge that the X-feed incorporated his circuit. If I were trying to hide that fact I wouldn't have stated on my website that it was a meier bass enhanced crossfeed circuit would I?

Some of the crossfeeds I built were made with different value components and some weren't. I don't know when my website stopped acknowledging Jan but it "did" and I wasn't trying to hide anything.

I'm not a lawyer and all of this has come as a bit of a shock, if I'd been aware that Jans circuit was not allowed to be built then I wouldn't have built it. From what I gathered the circuit was free for anyone to build?

I can see all of your points and now I'm fully furnished with the facts regarding copyright etc. I'm beginning to understand the situation a bit better. I was just upset last night being accused of being a thief and a scoundrel, I didn't set out to con anybody or steal anything I just built crossfeeds at parts cost for those who were unable to build them themselves.

Sorry but I must have totally misread the situation


Mike.
 
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PinkFloyd

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Quote:

Originally posted by strohmie
No, those two scenarios are not the same.



You don't seem to get it. No matter how you word the scenario, by law it is a patent violation. If a person can build the circuit for *their own use* then it is acceptable. But advertising an item based on someone else's work whether for free or for profit, is still illegal.


This is a different set of laws, but take for example that disclaimer you hear at some point during sports broadcasts or movies -- "any rebroadcast without express written permission is prohibited." This situation is parallel, in that you are reproducing something without consent. Someone can open their own movie theater with free admission and simply play DVDs they own for the crowd, but just because it's non-profit doesn't make it legal.

*The act of reproduction without consent takes away business from the owners of the copyrighted or patented product.* I don't care if you only did it five times. You are in the wrong here.


It's all very well knowing this after the event
As I say, I'm not a lawyer and didn't think I was doing anything unlawful. I'm not a cloak and dagger person and this has come as a real eye opener to me.

Mike.
 
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BoyElroy

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One crucial question to ask in any copyright violation case is, was any harm done to the holder of the copyright? In this case, Jan did not offer a comparable product (i.e. a stand alone crossfeed) and the economic damage he may have suffered through the actions of Pinky would be hard to quantify. In court, Jan may have a winnable case, but I think the actual damages awarded would be minimal, at best.
 
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strohmie

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Quote:

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
It's all very well knowing this after the event
As I say, I'm not a lawyer and didn't think I was doing anything unlawful. I'm not a cloak and dagger person and this has come as a real eye opener to me.


I think at this point it would be easiest to correspond with Jan personally (ie. not on this board) and see if you can come to an agreement. Best case, you offer him a personal apology and agree not to distribute the X-feed anymore and that will be that. Hopefully it won't go any farther than that, considering this isn't a big distribution scam if only five were made, but that's up to Jan at this point. Please do contact him.
 
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minya

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Quote:

Originally posted by BoyElroy
In this case, Jan did not offer a comparable product (i.e. a stand alone crossfeed)


Yeah, he did. The Corda Cross-1.

- Chris
 
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