[Jeremy]

I just picked up my Apogee Duet last night for my MacBook Pro and will be using iTunes as my player. I've read the brief manual on Maestro but am unclear on one aspect for which there seems to be contradictory views here, having just done a search.

Do I need to manually set OSX's Audio MIDI setup to 96/24 when configuring the Duet as the default output? The default, even with the Duet set as output, is 44100 and 2ch 16 bit. I have heard here (and on Apogee's website) that this should be changed to 96/24 to maximize the sound quality from iTunes on the Mac. Or do I leave it set where it was and assume that the Duet is doing whatever it needs to do in the background to provide the best possible sound quality from iTunes?

Thanks in advance for any help on this.

 

[Jaska]

There has indeed been a lot of discussion about this puzzling issue here over the course of the past few weeks. While I am not at all certain of what the "correct" answer is, my own listening tests and preferences have led me to stick with 96/24. I'd love to find out what Apogee would actually recommend, but until then, I'm happy overall with my current settings and don't feel the need to change them unless I use my ER-4S with the Duet, in which case I feel that 44.1/16 sounds better to me.

Most importantly, what do you think of your Duet's performance so far?

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif There has indeed been a lot of discussion about this puzzling issue here over the course of the past few weeks. While I am not at all certain of what the "correct" answer is, my own listening tests and preferences have led me to stick with 96/24. I'd love to find out what Apogee would actually recommend, but until then, I'm happy overall with my current settings and don't feel the need to change them unless I use my ER-4S with the Duet, in which case I feel that 44.1/16 sounds better to me. Most importantly, what do you think of your Duet's performance so far?

I have mixed feelings. I think this is because of two things: the law of diminishing returns on the upgrade path combined with the inevitable anticlimax after three months of anticipation for the Duet. In other words, I'm feeling underwhelmed at this point in the sense that I am not experiencing a dramatic upgrade in sound quality compared to just the headphones out on my MacBook Pro, which has always impressed me. Maybe it is the limitations of my own ears, but I feel the upgrade in sound quality to be negligible so far.

 

[iKonoKlast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have mixed feelings. I think this is because of two things: the law of diminishing returns on the upgrade path combined with the inevitable anticlimax after three months of anticipation for the Duet. In other words, I'm feeling underwhelmed at this point in the sense that I am not experiencing a dramatic upgrade in sound quality compared to just the headphones out on my MacBook Pro, which has always impressed me. Maybe it is the limitations of my own ears, but I feel the upgrade in sound quality to be negligible so far.

I'm sorry you feel that way... I myself am seriously considering upgrading to the Duet from the Total Bithead and am pondering whether it is worth the $500. I've never made such a significant purchase in audio before and I feel I might regret it. Like you, maybe it is because I don't have audiophile-grade golden ears... it took me a considerable amount of patience and time to really appreciate the upgrade to the Bithead from the Macbook audio out.

So maybe it will just take you some time. Please keep us updated over time as you listen to your Duet. I greatly value your comments because a lot of people on this forum talk about subtleties as if they were huge differences and there's not many guys like us who perceive audio quality in a sort of mundane way.

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm feeling underwhelmed at this point in the sense that I am not experiencing a dramatic upgrade in sound quality compared to just the headphones out on my MacBook Pro, which has always impressed me. Maybe it is the limitations of my own ears, but I feel the upgrade in sound quality to be negligible so far.

Can I ask which headphones you're basing this assessment on, and whether or not you're adding your SR-71 to the chain?

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can I ask which headphones you're basing this assessment on, and whether or not you're adding your SR-71 to the chain?

I purchased a pro-grade quality cable (dual male 1/4" to single minijack) to use the SR-71 with my Duet. I have depended on and loved my SR-71 for three years. I found there to be no upgrade in sound quality whatsoever adding the SR-71 to the chain. In fact, I found the sound quality to be cleaner, clearer and, amazingly, with greater volume capacity (though I didn't need it!) coming directly from the headphone out on the Duet. I am using Grado RS-1s for headphones.

I had a much longer listening session last night and I am noticing now that the sound is more detailed and crisper with a greater feeling of air or space between all the layers which is very pleasing. Or is my brain just playing tricks on me and convincing me of this because I don't want to be disappointed with my purchase? I have until Tuesday to return the Duet for a full refund.

By the way, this thing is built like a tank. It's much bigger and heavier than I was expecting, but it looks great next to my MacBook Pro. They were clearly designed for each other. If I decide to keep the Duet I may also buy a pair of powered desktop monitors (such as E51 nEar 05) and take advantage of the dual monitor outs on the breakout cable. Right now, though, I'm happy to be able to put that ugly cable back in the box.

 

[Jaska]

This is basically what I expected to hear. The Duet headphone amp is likely to beat any portable amp out there, and even low-end home amps. My opinion is that the Duet will drive headphones such as Sennheisers and AKGs extremely well, but isn't an ideal match for low-impedance headphones such as Grados which demand more current.

Having owned a Hornet for a year, it's been my experience that it attenuates treble a bit, and maybe even mids. The Duet is capable of providing such a high level of detail and clarity that some of this can get lost with the "wrong" amp added to the chain. I have decided to keep using the Duet's headphone amp for high-impedance headphones requiring a lot of voltage to drive properly, and I've bought a Gilmore Lite to maximize my Grado experience.

 

[indysmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I purchased a pro-grade quality cable (dual male 1/4" to single minijack) to use the SR-71 with my Duet.

Where abouts from? I've been looking for one to run the duet into my Voyager.
Thanks

 

[Jaska]

In case Jeremy doesn't respond right away, I will just say that Blue Jeans Cable can make a very nice custom cable for this purpose for a very reasonable cost. They have a special UK-based ordering site as well. I have the specs for the cable in case you're interested since I almost ordered one of these not too long ago.

 

[indysmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif In case Jeremy doesn't respond right away, I will just say that Blue Jeans Cable can make a very nice custom cable for this purpose for a very reasonable cost. They have a special UK-based ordering site as well. I have the specs for the cable in case you're interested since I almost ordered one of these not too long ago.

Thanks! Do I need to email them for this cable, or can it be found on their website? (I can't find it).
Sorry for the thread hijack btw.

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by indysmith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks! Do I need to email them for this cable, or can it be found on their website? (I can't find it).

You will need to e-mail them, but they are VERY prompt about replying to e-mails and filling orders.

Based on my previous correspondence with them, the cable used would be BJC MSA-1 and the cost (in USD) would be $25 plus $2 per foot. As long as you specify that you want 1/4" male TS (L and R) to a single 1/8" male TRS, the appropriate Canare connectors will be used (F15 and F12).

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by indysmith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where abouts from? I've been looking for one to run the duet into my Voyager. Thanks

Andertons Music Company - Guitars, Amplifiers, Pro-audio, Keyboards, Drums, Recording. Fender, Gibson, Pearl, Line6

 

[Hopstretch]

Getting back on topic, I thought the following might be of interest as it's a fairly complete treatment of the issues with Audio Midi and iTunes. Via Stereophile from Benchmark, who seem to be the most proactive (or, at least, the most vocal) about their interactions with Apple.

Quote:

iTunes 7.x can work very well on Mac OS X with the proper configuration, but the wrong configuration can cause serious distortion. It is important to understand the fundamental modes of operation of both iTunes and CoreAudio, specifically regarding sample rates. CoreAudio and iTunes can simultaneously operate at independent sample rates. At all times, the sample rate set in AudioMIDI Setup dictates the sample rate at which CoreAudio is operating. When iTunes is launched, iTunes locks to the sample rate at which CoreAudio is currently operating (which is the sample rate that is set in AudioMIDI) and does not change until it is closed and re-launched. However, after iTunes launches and locks its sample rate, its sample rate will not change thereafter, even if CoreAudio's sample rate setting in AudioMIDI Setup is changed. To change the sample-rate of iTunes, iTunes must be shut down, and then restarted after the desired sample rate is set in AudioMIDI Setup. The audio being played in iTunes will always stream from iTunes at the locked-in sample rate. In other words, if iTunes is locked to 44.1 kHz, all audio with other sample rates will be converted to 44.1 kHz by iTunes. iTunes then streams this audio to CoreAudio to be mixed and/or streamed to the hardware. What does all of this mean for the end user? If the user changes CoreAudio's sample-rate in AudioMIDI Setup to something different than what iTunes is locked to, CoreAudio will convert the sample rate of the audio that it is receiving from iTunes. In this case, the audio may be undergoing two levels of sample-rate conversion (once by iTunes and once by CoreAudio). (The SRC in iTunes is of very high quality (virtually inaudible), but the SRC in CoreAudio is horrible and will cause significant distortion.) If the user wants to change the sample rate of CoreAudio, iTunes should be restarted so that it can lock to the correct sample rate. We are suggesting two different recommended solutions to our customers: 1) The "Set It And Forget It" solution for iTunes 7.x: Before opening iTunes, set the sample rate of CoreAudio (in AudioMIDI Setup) to 96kHz. Do not change the sample rate of CoreAudio unless iTunes is restarted after the change is made. This solution will prevent CoreAudio from applying SRC, as the quality of CoreAudio's SRC is horrible. Also, by having iTunes locked at 96kHz, all audio with sample rates below 96kHz will be up-sampled to 96kHz. This will cause virtually no loss in sonic quality, as the quality of iTunes' SRC is very good—virtually inaudible. Also, by avoiding down-sampling by iTunes, this setting will never result in a loss of bandwidth. 2) The 'Bit-Transparency For Each Sample Rate' solution: (Note: This solution is rather cumbersome, offers virtually no quality improvement over the first solution, and can easily be mis-configured, which will cause severe distortion.) Before opening iTunes, set the sample rate of CoreAudio (in AudioMIDI Setup) to that of the audio you will be playing. Do not change the sample rate of CoreAudio unless iTunes is restarted after the change is made. This solution will prevent CoreAudio from applying SRC, and avoid SRC by iTunes for all audio with the same sample rate that iTunes is locked to. Also, the end user should not hesitate to use the volume control in iTunes 7.x, as it is very well designed and operates at 24-bits for audio devices that support 24-bit operation. For iTunes 6 and earlier, simply set the sample-rate in AudioMIDI to match that of the audio being played, and keep the volume control at 100%.

Personally, based on nothing but my Luddite tendencies, I don't think I want iTunes upsampling for me and, since all my stuff is lossless rips from standard CD, I'm staying with 44.1kHz.

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iKonoKlast /img/forum/go_quote.gif So maybe it will just take you some time. Please keep us updated over time as you listen to your Duet. I greatly value your comments because a lot of people on this forum talk about subtleties as if they were huge differences and there's not many guys like us who perceive audio quality in a sort of mundane way.

Well I didn't return my Duet yesterday, which was my final return date. And there was no struggle in that decision. My ears are opening up to it. The improvement is subtle, but it is definitely present, and the more I listen through it, especially to familiar music, the more I hear and appreciate the crystal clear sound it produces. The improvement is significant enough to excite me and make it worth the price tag. I guess I need to upgrade my LAME encoded 320 kbps MP3s to lossless next.

My recommendation would be to buy it and not look back.

 

[iKonoKlast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I didn't return my Duet yesterday, which was my final return date. And there was no struggle in that decision. My ears are opening up to it. The improvement is subtle, but it is definitely present, and the more I listen through it, especially to familiar music, the more I hear and appreciate the crystal clear sound it produces. The improvement is significant enough to excite me and make it worth the price tag. I guess I need to upgrade my LAME encoded 320 kbps MP3s to lossless next. My recommendation would be to buy it and not look back.

Cool. Sounds like it's really worth it... I think it'll synergize well with my HD650.