[Akathriel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rise To The Top /img/forum/go_quote.gif Arent both amps based off the same design? That said, they cant be that different, can they?

both of which amps? One of them is discrete and the other is opamp based. Guess which one cost 1200 dollars more...

This would be my personal reccommendation:Balanced Beta 22 A nice one is 1000 dollars in parts, and you could probably fully blackgate it for 1500. Add whatever dongles you want (preamp, gainswitch) and you got a killer SS amp at a pretty reasonable price. If you can't build one yourself, commission one it would still be well within your price range.

 

[twsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 /img/forum/go_quote.gif the GSX is somewhat of a Gilmore design now (current modules) but hopefully soon Justin will release his very own and very first module using HIS sonic signature, a great idea for GSX owners but who knows what it will sound like? anyone hear Justin's sound before for long time? in other words the GSX now may be a future pot of gold or may not be favored with Justin's sound to it..not sure how safe you can call that.

This is a very good question indeed. I don't have the GS-X but just bought a GS-1 (with SA). I believe the GS-1 modules are essentially the same Gilmore-based modules that are used in the GS-X. I happen to love the sound of the GS-1 so I really wonder what the GS-1 (and GS-X) would sound like with the new modules - maybe I wouldn't like it nearly as much?? I think the jury will be out on this until the new modules actually become available, and anyone contemplating the purchase of either a GS-1 or GS-X should base their decision on what is currently available.

 

[purk]

Quote:

That doesn't make any sense. Adding pre-amp outputs is not that big a deal. You're just adding a couple resistors to drive lower impedances, and a couple of plugs. Singlepower does this for 100 bucks. It comes standard on the Headamps. If you don't want to do them in parallel add a switch. Again no biggie. It sounds like Ray put a lot of time in effort in getting the pre amp outputs up to his high standards, but there's no extra amp in there, sorry.

Yes, Mikhail only charged me 120 dollars to add a preamp output on my SDS-SE and it sounds amazing as a preamp. Also my Maxed PPA is also using the OPA637s.

FYI, I also love the look of the Apache.

I also second the Beta22 design. The maxed out Beta22 was right there if not slightly better than the HR maxed. The Beta22 is very powerful sounding amp that is capable of extracting every bits of details from your music. I was very impressed with that amp at the FL meet....so you should pay attention to those. Another balanced solidstate amp worth considering is the SP Sq. Wave SL. The SP Sq. Wave balanced was also right there with the HR maxed balanced for almost 50% of the cost. I heard the two amp side by side using the balanced HD650. Of course, the maxed Balanced is slightly more refined and extended a little bit deeper than the Sq. Wave. For being that small, the Sq. Wave is very very good (once those blackgates have burned in).

 

[Akathriel]

Purk I heard that same beta22 a couple weeks later after it had burned in. From memory, I think it sounds better than the max

. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big singlepower fan, but the problem with the square wave is it sounds FANTASTIC with the HD650/600 and pretty mediocre in my experience with other cans. It is a true complement amp imo.

 

[purk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathriel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Purk I heard that same beta22 a couple weeks later after it had burned in. From memory, I think it sounds better than the max . Don't get me wrong, I'm a big singlepower fan, but the problem with the square wave is it sounds FANTASTIC with the HD650/600 and pretty mediocre in my experience with other cans. It is a true complement amp imo.

Yes.....I would rate the beta22 to be very high up. Trust me I heard the exact same thing at florida meet. The Sq. Wave is quite nice with the HD-650 w/ Zu actually but I need to give it more time with the L3000 and R10. The SQ. Wave still sound a bit better than my maxed PPA for my L3000 though.

 

[Shunyata]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathriel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Having never heard either amp heres my take on it: Looking solely at construction I don't understand where your 3000 dollars is going for the Apache. I agree that it looks ****ing sick, but the bottom line is you're paying 3k for 2 HR-2s strapped together, and a nicer psu plus some nice additional features. I cant imagine paying 3k for an opamp design. I think thats crazy. That being said, perhaps the Apache does outperform the GS-X sonically, again I wouldn't know. But on paper, the GS-X seems like a better value to me.

If you look inside the max and the gsx, you will also find "just parts." Everything is marked up heavily, except maybe the b22. Imagine 1500 in parts without chassis for the 4ch b22. If that amp was retail in a nice case I'd price it at way over 5000. Plus you can have it as a speaker amp. Then you can also have an opus dac built in the same chassis like the max with max dac... and it is discrete like the gsx- albeit much much warmer.

 

[cotdt]

I've heard the Apache but not the Headroom Max Balanced; the Apache sounded very good with a lush midrange. But like Rise to the Top mentioned, people are saying that the Apache and original version of the Headroom uses a similar circuit but different opamps, so I'm sure they will still sound different but if you're rolling opamps you might be able to get them to sound pretty similar. Since the Apache is cheaper, go for that.

 

[Akathriel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shunyata /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you look inside the max and the gsx, you will also find "just parts." Everything is marked up heavily, except maybe the b22. Imagine 1500 in parts without chassis for the 4ch b22. If that amp was retail in a nice case I'd price it at way over 5000. Plus you can have it as a speaker amp. Then you can also have an opus dac built in the same chassis like the max with max dac... and it is discrete like the gsx- albeit much much warmer.

I think the headroom formula is pretty fair and Tyll has posted it here before. Tyll has a MUCH MUCH higher overhead than either Justin or Ray. The GS-X is also very reasonable for what it is. Have you ever looked inside a hornet? Not quite 800% mark up, but close. Again it is a really good sounding amp and had I not known whats inside, maybe I'd own one. I don't take issue with the sound quality or build quality of RSA products, but I think there are better ways to spend your money. Btw, you can build a B22 with a custom chassis and full black gates for 1400. And thats using really, really good parts. At least that what thrice told me. (The owner and builder of the amp purk and I were referring too [hope thats the same one hehe]) Please understand I'm not trying to bash Ray, but I question why his stuff has to cost so much. I guess thats what the market will bear.

Also as far as I am aware, the current version of the max is fully discrete. Whats the point of comparing a current product to a buried one?

 

[cotdt]

Well it's not quite fair to compare the markup prices of commercial amps versus DIY amps. The DIY builders already have stable day jobs (most of them are engineers) so it's like a hobby and they don't build amps to feed their families. If you do the math, to make a good living you would have to make a certain profit on your amps and the prices charged are actually quite reasonable.

 

[Akathriel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well it's not quite fair to compare the markup prices of commercial amps versus DIY amps. The DIY builders already have stable day jobs (most of them are engineers) so it's like a hobby and they don't build amps to feed their families. If you do the math, to make a good living you would have to make a certain profit on your amps and the prices charged are actually quite reasonable.

I agree, so compare it to the GS-X. It still doesn't add up. I won't post in this thread anymore, I think I've made my point and I'm not gonna troll.

 

[Nebby]

oops, I was wrong

 

[daltonlanny]

Compared to home power amplifiers and preamps, I feel ALL headphone amps are WAY overpriced.

Most headphone amplifiers put out 1 watt or less at best, and have much less parts than a decent home power amplifier and/or preamp.
My friends and I were discussing this the other day.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[warrior05]

Though the subject of this thread - the original subject, that is - I find very interesting, I'm not surprised the OP is hardly getting any direct responses. The Apache has just started shipping and to find someone that either has both or has had extensive quality listening time on both would be very slim I expect.

I have heard the Maxed balanced amp and it made me fall in love with balanced configurations - as well as a pair of balanced K701s.

I find with comparisons like this the best way to try and hear the two yourself (obviously the ideal situation) is to either hold or get to a mini-meet.

As for the price of these amps: Yes, they are expensive but high-end audio equipment generally is. Obviously there is markup - these people whether they be established or on the side DIY'ers - need to recoup costs. And it is not just the cost of parts. You are paying for their experience, their knowledge, tons of R&D that goes into producing the product as well as operating expenses. So you can put together a Beta22 for $1400. I say go for it and never look back. Though I'm a DIY'er and do all my own recabling and ICs, amp building is beyond my current knowledge base. I have absolutely no problem in dropping $3k on RSA's Apache because I know I'm getting a quality product from someone who is absolutely passionate about this stuff. That is not to say there aren't others like Ray out there. For me, personally, I identify with Ray's sound sig and what he considers to be ideal.

 

[humanflyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daltonlanny /img/forum/go_quote.gif Compared to home power amplifiers and preamps, I feel ALL headphone amps are WAY overpriced. Most headphone amplifiers put out 1 watt or less at best, and have much less parts than a decent home power amplifier and/or preamp. My friends and I were discussing this the other day. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, but how many headphone amplifiers are produced and sold versus how many speaker amps are produced and sold? Ever heard of a little thing called economy of scale.

And how about out-sourcing?

If you are just comparing parts, then perhaps you would be right, but parts alone don't constitute the whole cost of the product.

 

[Vangelis]

Thanks to all for replying to my post. I know it’s hard to make it a completely level playing field with the variables at a show like Head Fest. I hoping someone was dragging their own cans through the show and made the Max? Apache comparison, at least using ones own head phones removes at least one variable. Most manufactures want to show their amp in best sonics so most (from what I’ve read) used good sources. Some of you keep discussing the GS-X. I am more interested in why the Headroom Max seldom if ever compared to the likes of Headamp, Single power, RSA, Rudistor products…etc. Why?

I am going balanced and I want SS. Headroom started the balanced can format so where does the Max Balanced in the stand in the whole mix?

One reason I am not moving to the GS-X is the whole imaginary module thing. I probably get heat on this, but where is eminently available module? I had just sold my GS-1 wanting to go balanced. But why go with a GS-X when there may never be a new module? Yeah, you might say “you have no patience” but I beg to differ from my experience. Justin told me he was weeks away from the final tests on his new modules and that he would swap them out ASAP. The new module swap was a BIG reason for purchasing my GS-1. Well weeks went by….months went by…. and now going on two years, no new module. Everyone says “its ok because Justin is a good guy”. I’m sure he is. I’m in business. I’m an OK guy too, but I have to meet my commitments. If I was to deliver products years or heck even months late I’d soon be out of business regardless of the reasons. Service and credibility are important. So I am really more interested in the Max Balanced. I am a recent poster on Head-Fi. I do appreciate everyone’s feed back.