[leng jai]

So Audeze just announced their new LCD4 and upon seeing their asking price my first thought was how comical headphone pricing is getting these days. My next thought was that it's finally time to pick up a pair of HD800s before Sennheiser decides to jack up the price for the sake of it. I believe their current street price over in the States is around 1300-1400USD which makes it cheaper than the Ether and half the price of the HE1000s and LCD3. It seems the prices just seem going up despite the fact that headphones aren't actually getting any better. If I'm not mistaken the HD800s are still one of the most technically proficient headphones in existence if you take personal preferences out of the equation. The LCD4s are a whopping $4000 - does anyone actually want these things for that price especially coming from a company like Audeze? Obviously there must be since they priced it as such. How much higher are prices going to get? I remember that it was only a few years ago that the HD800s were considered outrageously overpriced (and a lot of people still think they are) and here we are with multiple competitors at over double their value. Beyerdynamic seem to be the only company that has kept their flagship prices somewhat reasonable, even if many people consider the T1s "inferior" on a technical level.
 
Just for good measure the current list price for HD800 on A2A is $1349AUD, and the LCD4 is $6399.

 

[TMRaven]

And it's funny how the HD800 still holds up to -- if not beats--  headphones that are 2-3x their price.
 
Pathetic times in the industry right now.

 

[Naim.F.C]

It's hilarious really. Pure greed fuelled price gouging. The bigger sham is that many of the newer Audeze cans have had terrible reliability issues as well, which makes it that much worse.
 
The most amusing thing is, my favourite cans out of all the one's I've tested and used, which include two sets of the HD800's and multiple Audeze cans, are still the Beyerdynamic T1's. At present the T1's can be purchased for £500 on Amazon UK, and $690 on the US site. I am willing to bet money that I'll still prefer the sound of the T1's to the LCD4's, despite the latter costing approximately six times more.
 
Beyerdynamic in contrast to Audeze's strategies, have released a tweaked version of the T1's (2nd generation) that actually retails for less than the price of the original. The cost savings from the less expensive leather headband and pads, have been passed on to the customer, despite the internals being modified, and more R&D being spent on that. That's what you call actually considering the consumer, and attempting to offer some semblance of value for money, even though $1000 is still a ridiculously high amount to pay for something that probably costs a fraction of that to actually manufacture.

 

[Naim.F.C]

I think the only way we're going to stop this absurd price gouging is to simply be vocal about our displeasure of it, and speak loudest with our wallets. The best thing would be if people stopped buying these massively price inflated products, because at the end of the day, the more we buy, the more the manufacturers get the message that it's ok to take advantage. It's not even a question of how wealthy we are, it's about wanting better value proposition. In that respect being more frugal and conscious of these things as consumers, will only benefit us in the long run. 
 
As you rightly mentioned, the worst thing to come out of this would be if companies like Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic get a whiff of Audeze's (and other companies) strategies and jump on the bandwagon. I'm very happy to see Beyerdynamic haven't with the updated version of the T1's. Though it's unfortunate companies like Shure and Westone have with their latest IEM releases.

 

[hduong]

I wonder how much of that $4000 is put into RD as the sales volume isn't that high.  I still can't believe I bought a $1400 pair of headphones in the HD800.

 

[Naim.F.C]

  I wonder how much of that $4000 is put into RD as the sales volume isn't that high.  I still can't believe I bought a $1400 pair of headphones in the HD800.

I doubt the R&D costs are actually much in the grand scheme of things, especially given how similar each of the headphones released are in terms of physical properties (pretty much the same basic external physical design adopted for years on end now). Even sonically the departure between the varying models is fairly limited too. Then there's the timing of each subsequent release, which are frequent to say the least. The manufacturing cost is generally the main determining factor towards a products end price.
 
I think it's more a case of Audeze employing the 'more profit from less', than 'less profit from more' strategy. Presumably they are making up the difference in lower sales volumes, with the insane mark up from the few purchases there will be.

 

[Rhamnetin]

 
The most amusing thing is, my favourite cans out of all the one's I've tested and used, which include two sets of the HD800's and multiple Audeze cans, are still the Beyerdynamic T1's. At present the T1's can be purchased for £500 on Amazon UK, and $690 on the US site. 

 
Yeah the T1 has to be the best value flagship.  The gen 1 version is closer to mid-fi price territory if anything, and it can easily compete with $1000+ headphones.  You'll be hard pressed to find a dynamic/orthodynamic headphone that's considerably more detailed than the T1, and with considerable sound stage improvements.  As a bonus the T1's build quality is much better than the vast majority of more pricey headphones.

 

[abhinit90]

   
Yeah the T1 has to be the best value flagship.  The gen 1 version is closer to mid-fi price territory if anything, and it can easily compete with $1000+ headphones.  You'll be hard pressed to find a dynamic/orthodynamic headphone that's considerably more detailed than the T1, and with considerable sound stage improvements.  As a bonus the T1's build quality is much better than the vast majority of more pricey headphones.

Seems like I was the unlucky fish who got a DOA T1

 

[MermaidMan]

It also makes you wonder how long Sennheiser will wait to replace the HD800. If it's so good and a relative bargain, why would they work on a successor anytime soon? They are still the king of neutrality on the right setup, and compete with pretty much every other flagship on the market. An improved HD800 would be nice, but I think it speaks volumes of how well Sennheiser did in designing the HD800, six years ago at that.

 

[leng jai]

It also makes you wonder how long Sennheiser will wait to replace the HD800. If it's so good and a relative bargain, why would they work on a successor anytime soon? They are still the king of neutrality on the right setup, and compete with pretty much every other flagship on the market. An improved HD800 would be nice, but I think it speaks volumes of how well Sennheiser did in designing the HD800, six years ago at that.

Why release another flagship when your current one from half a decade ago hasn't been surpassed? It's a bit of a farce that Audeze is charging what they are, especially when their quality control/consistency is nowhere near the standard of a company like Sennheiser. I guess you can't really blame them if people are willing to buy their products.

 

[MermaidMan]

 
Why release another flagship when your current one from half a decade ago hasn't been surpassed? It's a bit of a farce that Audeze is charging what they are, especially when there quality control/consistency is nowhere near the standard of a company like Sennheiser. I guess you can't really blame them if people are willing to buy their products.

Exactly. Even the HE1000 seems wildly overpriced (I admittedly haven' heard it, but the consensus seems that it is not necessarily better than the previous flagships, at least not in all areas). For the LCD-4 to be priced at 4K it better be not only the best headphone in the world, but be a significant upgrade in sonic ability over it's competition. The R10 and Orpheus are legends because they were so far ahead of everything else when they were released. Maybe we are in an age where there is not much more performance to be extracted from a headphone driver, but I doubt this is the case. 

 

[leng jai]

   
Yeah the T1 has to be the best value flagship.  The gen 1 version is closer to mid-fi price territory if anything, and it can easily compete with $1000+ headphones.  You'll be hard pressed to find a dynamic/orthodynamic headphone that's considerably more detailed than the T1, and with considerable sound stage improvements.  As a bonus the T1's build quality is much better than the vast majority of more pricey headphones.

The build quality of the T1s is off the charts - it actually feels more expensive and high end than the HD800s. The worst thing about them was the fact they didn't have a detachable cable is terrible for a $1k headphone. It's definitely an inferior headphone to the HD800 but the current price of the first generation model is pretty much a bargain. They're technically not flagships anymore though.

 

[pctazhp]

Seems to me the high end headphone industry is just retracing the path taken by the high end audiophile industry. Thirty or forty years ago, each new "flagship" product from the likes of Audio Research, Krell, VPI, Mark Levinson, Wilson Audio, Infinity, etc won slobbering praise from the pages of The Absolute Sound and Stereophile. And of course each new product pushed the price ceiling to a dizzying height that had to that point seemed unimaginable. Today, sites like this perform the same function TAS used to play for audiophiles (and I guess still does to a certain extent).
 
Yet there were always people (including me in my young and foolish days) ready to spend whatever it took to own the latest and greatest. Are we any different today with our multi-thousand-dollar headphones and OTL amps??? I just put C3Gs in my relatively new Little Dot MK IV SE. But I'm already woefully behind because many of the LD folds seem to have moved on to Feliks Audio!!!

 

[ToroFiestaSol]

I will try to ask your question the best I can, my english is not perfect but I'll try:
 
Sennheiser:
 
- Founded in 1945
- In 1955, they had 250 employees.
- 2132 employees (2009)
- Owns Neumann (most high praised and regarded microphone brand)
- Sales Profits (2012): 45.7 millions (€)
- Their 1991 Orpheus is considered by many the best headphone in the world, and it's a 24 years old product.
 
Audeze:
 
- Founded in 2008
- Unknown number of employees (couldn't find the number), but I'm very sure is less than 100 people.
- Sales profits: unknown (but can't be higher than Sennheiser's sales profit)
 
What can I say with this? Easy, Sennheiser has much more money to use for R&D, because of economies of scale.
Sennheiser can price a product several times cheaper than Audeze achieving the same performance or even more, that's why the HD800 competes or surpasses in some areas new TOTL headphones priced 3 times more from other companies.
The HD800 would cost even more than the LCD-4 if Audeze manufactures it.
 
Now, we all know that everyone hears different, so what for me is "perfect" for you can be trash, and vice versa. That's the Audeze (and other small companies) opportunity and argument to price a TOTL headphone 4 times more than the HD800.
You can like a warmer, bassier and fuller sounding headphone more than the HD800 (not being technically better, but with that opposite sound), so they make their flagship the best that they can and sell it at 4k because they know that there are people that loves that sound signature of their products.
If you look closer, the LCD-4 shares the same type of design of the other LCD products, but, the HD800 looks totally different from the HD600 for example (R&D). 
 
Audio is a very subjective thing, and more with headphones because of our ear canals shape.
My advice is try before buy and buy what you like more, some times you can like more a mid-priced product than a top of the line one because of your hearing perception.

 

[leng jai]

  I will try to ask your question the best I can, my english is not perfect but I'll try:
 
Sennheiser:
 
- Founded in 1945
- In 1955, they had 250 employees.
- 2132 employees (2009)
- Owns Neumann (most high praised and regarded microphone brand)
- Sales Profits (2012): 45.7 millions (€)
- Their 1991 Orpheus is considered by many the best headphone in the world, and it's a 24 years old product.
 
Audeze:
 
- Founded in 2008
- Unknown number of employees (couldn't find the number), but I'm very sure is less than 100 people.
- Sales profits: unknown (but can't be higher than Sennheiser's sales profit)
 
What can I say with this? Easy, Sennheiser has much more money to use for R&D, because of economies of scale.
Sennheiser can price a product several times cheaper than Audeze achieving the same performance or even more, that's why the HD800 competes or surpasses in some areas new TOTL headphones priced 3 times more from other companies.
The HD800 would cost even more than the LCD-4 if Audeze manufactures it.
 
Now, we all know that everyone hears different, so what for me is "perfect" for you can be trash, and vice versa. That's the Audeze (and other small companies) opportunity and argument to price a TOTL headphone 4 times more than the HD800.
You can like a warmer, bassier and fuller sounding headphone more than the HD800 (not being technically better, but with that opposite sound), so they make their flagship the best that they can and sell it at 4k because they know that there are people that loves that sound signature of their products.
If you look closer, the LCD-4 shares the same type of design of the other LCD products, but, the HD800 looks totally different from the HD600 for example (R&D). 
 
Audio is a very subjective thing, and more with headphones because of our ear canals shape.
My advice is try before buy and buy what you like more, some times you can like more a mid-priced product than a top of the line one because of your hearing perception.

Aside from the "we produce the sound signature some people want so we'll just double the price of each flagship" argument there's literally zero justification or reason as to why Audeze prices are so obscene. That's enough for some people but for me there has to be some sort of technical merit when you start doubling the price of your competition each time.