[Tuberoller]

I'm sure any prospective enlistee is looking at all this thinking enlistment is a very bad idea. I hope nothing I've said has caused that perception.

I have to admit that I'm looking at the whole experience from a singular(in terms of branch of service and combat experience) point of view. When Yage and I first discussed him going Army,I think we talked about the possibilities of him seeing combat. He was determined to go Ranger and long before he got his Tab I'm sure he was aware of the likelihood of seeing some action. My experiences are a lot different from other folks here and as I'm sure most of you will agree,combat veterans tend to look at things in a different shade of red. I don't care what job you have,if you're being shot at,it's gonna suck.

I talked to vet(Navy) head-fier a few months ago at a meet and he showed me pics of when he got his last insignia. It was a really nice ceremony, his parents were there and he looked really good. He seemed shocked when I told him I got my rank while I was lying in a hospital bed with a tube down my throat. He laughed when I told him I had no idea where any of my medals were but I kept a jar on my desk with the 3 bullets and 28 pieces of schrapnel that have come out of me over the years.

Not trying to be morbid here but I do want folks to know that combat changes the whole experience dramatically. Yage is in Korea and that place is gonna be hot for a long time. His chances of seeing combat will always be high since he is a Ranger and holds a Combat MOS. I'm sure his reasons for enlisting are very different than most other folks.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IstariAsuka If you study something that is interesting and that you like, then you probably wouldn't be getting too bored. And what is there to become disillusioned about? It's just more school.

Disillusioned that I would be spending 4 years of my life on a degree that will have absolutely no bearing on my Navy career. (I'd like to make a career out of it, anyway.) Getting a degree in Nuclear Engineering from a University is a bad idea going into the Navy, as they teach entirely different methods. While yes, it'd actually be enjoyable if I got a degree in say, robotics, again, it'd have no bearing on my career. What's more, once I got out, what I learned would be so hopelessly outdated, I'd have to go back to school just to catch up.

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Dude. If being a cook in the military isn't a crappy job, then surely flipping burgers isn't. But, I'd have to disagree. There are a LOT of crappy jobs, both in the military and out of it. I know enough military type folks to be sure about this.

But you'd still be part of a group; a core. Especially on a sub. There's a brotherhood (and no, I'm not being sexist. Subs are men only. Yell at the Navy if you wish) aboard a sub. Everybody knows everybody else, and looks out for them. It's not like a disposable job at a fast food joint. It's more than that.

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I can, however, name lots of jobs that don't have a military counterpart. And really, when you're just out of highschool it's highly unlikely that you know exactly which field you're interested in, what type of job you'd like when you grow up, etc. College is a great way to let you discover what exactly your passion is. And it may very well turn out that what you want to do with your life is just not possible in the military. If you go straight into the military, you lose the opportunity entirely. Besides, if after college you still want to do the military thing, you're a lot better off than just enlisting...

You probably could. I was suprised myself as to how many jobs there were, though. Photographer/videographer, for instance. Never dawned on me that all those promotional pictures and videos were created by Navy personnel. Some people claim it's the best job there is, due to you being able to go pretty much anywhere. Whenever there's a high ranking officer around, you'll be right there beside them. If there's something cool going on, you'll be there. Wouldn't be bad, I must admit.

As to not knowing what you want to do, I had a pretty good idea. I knew I definitely wanted to go into engineering. I later narrowed that down to Mechanical, and then Robotics, since it mixes a little of everything. Unfortunately for me, Navy doesn't offer Robotics [yet]. However, I looked at the advantages and disadvantages, and decided Nuclear (or A/SECF) wouldn't be too terrible. After all, I'm still getting to use my head and hands, which was my #1 priority. I do not want a desk or grunt only job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usagi 1. Your stuck in a job that you loath, and can't leave or quite until your term is up or you reenlist. -If Wal-Mart offered you a job, would you sign a contract legally binding you and your services for 4-6 years? If you quit you may go to jail and you’re branded with the equivalent of a "Scarlet letter" by issuing a "bad conduct discharge" on your DD-Form 214.

If I indeed loathe it, I can switch after 2 years. 2 years is a fairly long time, but it's better than 6, no? If nothing else, I can tough it out.

Quote:

2. Have to put your life on the line by being deployed into a hostile zone. -Some people thought or think that combat is cool, until your shot at, one of your buddies die, or you die. Take Pat Tillman for example.

Navy fighting philosophy is as follows: Sit 100 miles off-shore. Drink coffee. Send in the marines. The last time there was an attack was 2000's USS Cole, and that was fairly small scale as opposed to what the ground forces are undergoing every day. There hasn't been a sunk ship/boat, to my knowledge, since the USS Scorpion, in 1968. And that was an accident (although perhaps caused by negligence on the shipyards part).

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3. Your family comes second to the military. -This is evident because of the high divorce rate. Maybe your young children don't even recognize you upon returning from deployments.

Agreed, and that's why I'm delaying marriage as long as possible. My mom was raised a Navy brat, and I don't want to put my kids through the crap she went through.

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4. You ultimately have to do what you're told to do. No ifs, ands, or buts, -This is devastating if you are half-way intelligent and posses independent qualities.

Eh, depends. I mean, yes, your CO or what-have-you could just tell you exactly what to do, but for the most part, they let you do your job. I'm sure this varies wildly depending on your rating (MOS for you Army/Marines. Something weird for Air Force), but I can't see much of a reason for a superior to come down on me. You have a manual that you have to follow in any case. If it's done that way, it's correct.

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5. Most of the time enlisted members of the military are treated like or looked upon as children to the officer class.

Not always so. Again, advanced fields are special. And also, once you make Chief (E-7), you're treated with a lot more respect. If I was an Officer fresh out of school, I'd definitely be listening to the enlisted. After all, they've been getting first hand experience this whole time, while I've been reading books.

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6. And for all your troubles you earn, in the first couple of years, the equivalent of $7 per hour or maybe a little over $400 bi weekly.........and that's before taxes. -after you buy some necessities (car, car insurance, "headphone set-up", life insurance{I can't believe you have to pay for your own life insurance!}, etc.) then you have to call your mommy for some gas/fuel to even get to work!

I figured it out once, and I think with all the bonuses (Sea Pay, Sub Pay, Hazard Pay...), I should make something like $35K to start. As for taxes, subs often get around them, from what I've heard. If you spend one day out of the month in what the Navy deems a war zone (100 miles or less off the coast of a "dangerous" country), the entire month's pay is tax free. As such, the Captain makes it a point to piddle around in said war zone for a day, even if it's out of the way. After all, they're making $100K or more a year; they don't want that to be taxed.

 

[Wodgy]

Stephonovich, you have so much potential, it worries (and saddens) me to see you drifting in this direction. I wish you would have had a trusted mentor who's an actual engineer to give you advice and help you chart a course through this. There's nothing wrong with the Navy, but as people have pointed out above, someone with your potential would have a much better time going in as an officer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Getting a degree in Nuclear Engineering from a University is a bad idea going into the Navy, as they teach entirely different methods. While yes, it'd actually be enjoyable if I got a degree in say, robotics, again, it'd have no bearing on my career. What's more, once I got out, what I learned would be so hopelessly outdated, I'd have to go back to school just to catch up.

You're very confused or misled. The things they teach you as an enlisted person in the Navy are the equivalent of what you'd learn at a trade school (or junior college, depending on the job). It is not at all similar to Engineering at a university. As AlanY pointed out above, "Nuclear Engineering" is just a fancy term. It is not engineering. It's basically training as a machinist, welder, or electronics repair person. These are trades, just like you would learn at a trade school. A degree in engineering is different. You learn the mathematics and theory behind building and designing state of the art machines, and you actually build some of them from scratch.

Trades are jobs that get "outdated" or lose their relevance quickly (not all trades do -- welding and machining are actually pretty solid careers, electronics repair is not). A degree in Mechanical Engineering will last you a lifetime, because the theoretical basis behind mechanisms, machines, and materials changes very, very slowly. (I just bought a book about the kinematics of machines written in 1963, and it is still relevant.)

I actually feel it is dishonest for the Navy to call this job "Nuclear Engineering" because it has the potential to confuse younger people like yourself. You will never be an engineer without going to university. There are no real engineering jobs (civilian or military) that you can learn in a trade school or a trade school-like environment like that of the military enlistees. They can call it engineering, but it is not engineering. It's just welding, machining, or repairing electronics.

I have a huge respect for the trades, don't get me wrong. But for someone like yourself, who is Carnegie Mellon or MIT material (with scholarships, no less!), you're throwing away an enormous amount of your potential. I've seen friends do things like this. It doesn't lead to happiness.

You can tell yourself that "I'll go to college later", but you're foreclosing your options early by spending six years in the military. It gets harder and harder to stay in school as you approach your 30s. You watch all your friends getting started in life, getting married, having kids, and you're still in school. It grinds on you. If you ever did an engineering degree, you could be 28 by the time you finish. At that point, would you really have the courage to do any kind of master's degree, knowing that you could be 30 or 31 by the time you finally got out of school? It's easy to say "sure" now, but it's much harder in reality, especially if you get married (and you can't always pick when you fall in love, that's just a reality of life). So you're basically foreclosing your chances at an advanced education by choosing to spend six years as an enlistee. For most people, it wouldn't matter. But for someone who's Carnegie Mellon material, you're giving up so much possibility.

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But you'd still be part of a group; a core. Especially on a sub. There's a brotherhood (and no, I'm not being sexist. Subs are men only. Yell at the Navy if you wish) aboard a sub. Everybody knows everybody else, and looks out for them. It's not like a disposable job at a fast food joint. It's more than that.

It sounds nice, but the reality is more prosaic. There will be a few really interesting guys on the sub, but for the most part, the majority of them will be the jocks from high school (I know you're homeschooled, but I'm sure you have some sense of what I mean) or people from poor and minority families or people with behavioral problems. Basically the same crew who worked at fast food joints in high school. Smart, ambitious, independent people tend to be the minority of enlistees.

Quote:

As to not knowing what you want to do, I had a pretty good idea. I knew I definitely wanted to go into engineering. I later narrowed that down to Mechanical, and then Robotics, since it mixes a little of everything. Unfortunately for me, Navy doesn't offer Robotics [yet].

Like I said earlier, this makes me a little sad. If you definitely want to go into engineering, the path you're on right now will not take you there. I wish you had some kind of mentor, a professional working engineer (especially in robotics) who could give you solid career advice based on experience.

I confess, I also don't really understand your reasoning when you say that you don't want to go to college because you fear doing something stupid that would jeopardize your potential to become an officer. The example you use is drinking in public. If I'm not mistaken, you're a pretty committed Christian (you've made some eloquent posts in the past). Are you really legitimately concerned that you'll suddenly go off drinking in public or shooting up drugs or doing other stupid things if you go off to college? It doesn't seem likely to me, more like some kind of post-facto rationalization. You should trust yourself.

Quote:

The navy fighting philosophy is as follows: Sit 100 miles off-shore. Drink coffee. Send in the marines. The last time there was an attack was 2000's USS Cole, and that was fairly small scale as opposed to what the ground forces are undergoing every day. There hasn't been a sunk ship/boat, to my knowledge, since the USS Scorpion, in 1968. And that was an accident (although perhaps caused by negligence on the shipyards part).

True enough, but there have been 34 Navy/Navy Reserve (not including Marines) killed in Iraq so far. That's low risk when set against the more than 1900 coalition casualties, but Navy people in some specialties do get sent along as support to other branches of the military.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy You're very confused or misled. The things they teach you as an enlisted person in the Navy are the equivalent of what you'd learn at a trade school (or junior college, depending on the job). It is not at all similar to Engineering at a university. As AlanY pointed out above, "Nuclear Engineering" is just a fancy term. It is not engineering. It's basically training as a machinist, welder, or electronics repair person. These are trades, just like you would learn at a trade school. A degree in engineering is different. You learn the mathematics and theory behind building and designing state of the art machines, and you actually build some of them from scratch.

I know the difference between engineering and trade. I just called it that because, well, it's the job title. I've talked to a couple of Nucs, both ex and current, (both Machinist's Mates) and they said their job basically entailed maintaining and operating the various reactor systems, as well as things like water desalinization and oxygen production. I know it won't be engineering. Quite frankly, I don't really want a degree in Nuclear Engineering.

Quote:

Trades are jobs that get "outdated" or lose their relevance quickly (not all trades do -- welding and machining are actually pretty solid careers, electronics repair is not). A degree in Mechanical Engineering will last you a lifetime, because the theoretical basis behind mechanisms, machines, and materials changes very, very slowly. (I just bought a book about the kinematics of machines written in 1963, and it is still relevant.)

Which is precisely why I don't really want to get a degree in robotics. Look, to be honest, I'd love to be in robotics just as much as the Navy. I love them both earnestly, and could probably be happy in either one. I just feel that the Navy will offer me more in life experience than a standard college/career path. Yes, robotics would probably offer me many times more money, and no doubt an easier life, but I'm not going in this solely for money.

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I have a huge respect for the trades, don't get me wrong. But for someone like yourself, who is Carnegie Mellon or MIT material (with scholarships, no less!), you're throwing away an enormous amount of your potential. I've seen friends do things like this. It doesn't lead to happiness.

This is where I get doubtful. I've heard both. Some absolutely hated their military experience. Others thought it wasn't bad, but nothing particularly noteworthy. Others, like my grandpa, went in straight out of highschool, did their 20+ years, and loved every bit of it. For reference, he was an EE, and is currently doing government contracting wth U.S. Embassies. He's currently in Tajikistan.

Quote:

You can tell yourself that "I'll go to college later", but you're foreclosing your options early by spending six years in the military. It gets harder and harder to stay in school as you approach your 30s. You watch all your friends getting started in life, getting married, having kids, and you're still in school. It grinds on you. If you ever did an engineering degree, you could be 28 by the time you finish. At that point, would you really have the courage to do any kind of master's degree, knowing that you could be 30 or 31 by the time you finally got out of school? It's easy to say "sure" now, but it's much harder in reality, especially if you get married (and you can't always pick when you fall in love, that's just a reality of life). So you're basically foreclosing your chances at an advanced education by choosing to spend six years as an enlistee. For most people, it wouldn't matter. But for someone who's Carnegie Mellon material, you're giving up so much possibility.

I know, I know. I can't really see myself going to college in my 30s. Really, what I'm banking on is getting picked up for an Officer program early on. (which would then send me to college) It's not that I don't want to go to college, it's that I want to do something with my life NOW. Call it impatience, youthful exuberance, or plain stupidity, but it's how I feel.

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It sounds nice, but the reality is more prosaic. There will be a few really interesting guys on the sub, but for the most part, the majority of them will be the jocks from high school (I know you're homeschooled, but I'm sure you have some sense of what I mean) or people from poor and minority families or people with behavioral problems. Basically the same crew who worked at fast food joints in high school. Smart, ambitious, independent people tend to be the minority of enlistees.

Subs will be a little better, as their standards are slightly higher, but yes, I understand there will be morons. At least I'll have the other Nucs

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Like I said earlier, this makes me a little sad. If you definitely want to go into engineering, the path you're on right now will not take you there. I wish you had some kind of mentor, a professional working engineer (especially in robotics) who could give you solid career advice based on experience.

Sigh... I dunno either. I struggled with the college decison for a long time, and who knows; maybe I didn't make the right decision. I'll talk to my recruiter at the next meeting, re-assess the situation. He's one of the few that's not just looking for another body to up his quota. When I first showed interest in joining, he had no problem if I wanted to wait, go to college, etc.

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I confess, I also don't really understand your reasoning when you say that you don't want to go to college because you fear doing something stupid that would jeopardize your potential to become an officer. The example you use is drinking in public. If I'm not mistaken, you're a pretty committed Christian (you've made some eloquent posts in the past). Are you really legitimately concerned that you'll suddenly go off drinking in public or shooting up drugs or doing other stupid things if you go off to college? It doesn't seem likely to me, more like some kind of post-facto rationalization. You should trust yourself.

Yes, it's a bit of a crutch. Truth be told, I'd be more worried, as I mentioned, about becoming bored and therefore having grades slipping, and becoming ineligible. I have some excruciatingly boring classes (can we say Intro to Computers? YEARGH! But I need the credits, and it's a Pre-Req for a lot of stuff) already, and loathe them. As such, my grades suck in that class. Ones that challenge me I excel in. Which reminds me, I need to check that class, see what assignments are due.

As for the religous aspect, actually, I've taken what I'd call a hiatus. I started questioning my beliefs about 6 months ago, and have slowly been shutting down everything I once thought true. As you can imagine, that hasn't helped my planning or thought process. But I don't really want to get into that; it'd get the thread locked.

Quote:

True enough, but there have been 34 Navy/Navy Reserve (not including Marines) killed in Iraq so far. That's low risk when set against the more than 1900 coalition casualties, but Navy people in some specialties do get sent along as support to other branches of the military.

Mostly spec-ops. SEALs, EOD, and the like. But yes, I know there is always a risk when you step up to the line.

 

[Usagi]

Wodgy conveyed an articulate and accurate description.

Most jobs in the military are "watered-down" versions of the civilian sector. You might feel cool and be able to tell your friends and family that you are a nuclear engineer, but you know, in the back of your mind, that when you go to work and your just moving nuclear waste barrels from one corner of the room to the other, that this is not what you signed-up for.

When the military has a task that is extremely complicated, technical, or time-consuming, they just contract that chore out (hire civilian companies). For example: If the Navy needs a new software patch for their ships guidance/tracking systems then who do you think they call? Some petty officer sleeping in bunk #4 or Northrop-Grumman Corp..

By the way, most of the jobs at Northrop require a degree. If you’re bored with school then take more classes. 20+ units per semester will give you a good rush and a run for your money! If you suck it up and push it, you can finish college in 3 years or less. HuuuaaaaH! (Civilian translation: Yeeeaaaa!)

It's very difficult to go back to college after completing your service. When I was in the military my friends and I vowed to deny our reenlistment and pursue college "full-time". Out of seven vowing members, I was the only one to take on this task. But to do this was to take a huge step back.

An analogy would be like driving 1000 miles in the wrong direction (1609 kilometers for you European folks) and having to backtrack to take the right fork in the road.


The # 1 downfall for young people is poor decision making and the inability to properly read their environment and/or situation. Don't be so eager to throw yourself off Bonzai Cliff just yet.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usagi Wodgy conveyed an articulate and accurate description. Most jobs in the military are "watered-down" versions of the civilian sector. You might feel cool and be able to tell your friends and family that you are a nuclear engineer, but you know, in the back of your mind, that when you go to work and your just moving nuclear waste barrels from one corner of the room to the other, that this is not what you signed-up for. When the military has a task that is extremely complicated, technical, or time-consuming, they just contract that chore out (hire civilian companies). For example: If the Navy needs a new software patch for their ships guidance/tracking systems then who do you think they call? Some petty officer sleeping in bunk #4 or Northrop-Grumman Corp.. By the way, most of the jobs at Northrop require a degree. If you’re bored with school then take more classes. 20+ units per semester will give you a good rush and a run for your money! If you suck it up and push it, you can finish college in 3 years or less. HuuuaaaaH! (Civilian translation: Yeeeaaaa!) It's very difficult to go back to college after completing your service. When I was in the military my friends and I vowed to deny our reenlistment and pursue college "full-time". Out of seven vowing members, I was the only one to take on this task. But to do this was to take a huge step back. An analogy would be like driving 1000 miles in the wrong direction (1609 kilometers for you European folks) and having to backtrack to take the right fork in the road. The # 1 downfall for young people is poor decision making and the inability to properly read their environment and/or situation. Don't be so eager to throw yourself off Bonzai Cliff just yet.

Well, you guys have definitely given me reason to think. I'm going to see my recruiter tomorrow and discuss options. Maybe college isn't such a bad idea. I would have one advantage (since I really doubt I'd be getting in this year - which sucks, but oh well), in that I'll be continuing to take classes at AB Tech. I should have a decent amount of credits by then; perhaps 30-45. It's something, anyway.

Anyway, thanks for all your comments. What I really need is some time off from everything, and a quiet place to go think. Wish I had some spare cash; I'd go check into a hotel for a day. Ah well.

 

[PSmith08]

Stephonovich: I don't know if this is something you're interested in, but you might consider seeing if you could get an appointment to the USNA. You could get your college and your naval career, all in one convenient package. It's, at least, something to look into.

Good luck.

 

[IstariAsuka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Yes, it's a bit of a crutch. Truth be told, I'd be more worried, as I mentioned, about becoming bored and therefore having grades slipping, and becoming ineligible. I have some excruciatingly boring classes (can we say Intro to Computers? YEARGH! But I need the credits, and it's a Pre-Req for a lot of stuff) already, and loathe them. As such, my grades suck in that class. Ones that challenge me I excel in. Which reminds me, I need to check that class, see what assignments are due.

Yeah, all the introductory classes and gen-ed classes are going to totally suck. Can't get around that. However, they're usually so incredibly easy that you can get an A (or AT LEAST a B) while doing essentially no work in them. If you think you'd get bored and do poorly in them, then just load up on credits your first couple semesters, as suggested above, and get most of them over with. It's easy to neglect one stupid class, but it's a lot harder to justify to yourself neglecting 4-6 stupid classes simultaneously. Anyways, once you actually start taking primarily major/minor classes the experience improves dramatically.

Or, to get out of all those pesky gen-eds, probably the best way is to do take a bunch of CLEP tests. I basically did this (but with AP tests), and I entered college with 29 units (and I didn't even take that many!). More importantly, though, it got me out of ...*counts*... 8 classes. I can hardly imagine how boring my first couple semesters would have been if I had had to actually take all those dumb classes. So, in that sense, I see why you're worried about the boringness; I would have been worried about it too. But, there are definately ways of getting around that problem... with the benefit of making it quite easy to graduate in 3 years! Or, by doing both CLEP *and* those community college classes, and possibly a few summer classes tossed in later, 2 years!

 

[DanG]

Stephonovich:

I did two years at one of the best liberal arts colleges in the country. I had applied early decision, got in, and was ecstatic because I had fulfilled the entire purpose of my life up to that point, getting into a really good school.

Guess what -- I flunked out after two years. Joined the rugby team first semester freshman year, drank three or four nights every week and had a nasty tackle for a liney but didn't do my schoolwork. I could do the work and even enjoyed a lot the books we read. But in the end, not doing that work got me the boot.

I went into the IDF looking for a different experience in a different country with a different language and a different standard of excellence. I got it, and being in the military -- albeit for such a short time -- turned my life and my perspective around. It was about trying hard, finishing anything I set out to do, and realizing that anything I set my mind to I can do.

This fall I go back to Williams College a junior at the age of 22. One of my best friends is finishing the Marines as a Sgt. after only 4 years and is going into UMass Amherst (an hour from me, we'll drink together a lot) as a 22-year-old freshman. The two of us will get everything we can out of college and out of life in general because we know that we can't take anything for granted and that everything we get in life is only up to us.

Going into the military will enrich your life. As in any government job (hey, that's what the military is) you'll deal with bureaucracy that will piss the living crap out of you and the idiots who'll be serving with (and above!) you will make it seem sometimes like you're the biggest chump in the world for having signed your life over to the Navy. But you'll come out with the biggest feeling of accomplishment you've had in your life either for doing something for your country, or for yourself, or at the very least, for having finished the toughest and crapiest 6 years of your life. Which is the case with most Israelis who finish their service.

Go into the Navy being proud of yourself and your decision and being ready for everything. Just know that you'll stick through to the end and that no matter what kind of crap the Navy or your crewmates or life in general throws at you you'll keep going and will never give up. You'll come out a man and going to college, you'll see how much better you're prepared for life after the military.

Congratulations, good luck, and thanks for your service.

Dan

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Well, you guys have definitely given me reason to think. I'm going to see my recruiter tomorrow and discuss options. Maybe college isn't such a bad idea. I would have one advantage (since I really doubt I'd be getting in this year - which sucks, but oh well), in that I'll be continuing to take classes at AB Tech. I should have a decent amount of credits by then; perhaps 30-45. It's something, anyway. Anyway, thanks for all your comments. What I really need is some time off from everything, and a quiet place to go think. Wish I had some spare cash; I'd go check into a hotel for a day. Ah well.

You sound like a really decent guy. I thought your responses above (not just the quoted bit, everything above) was well-written and thoughtful. It's clear you're doing some thinking. I'm not trying to poo-pooh a Navy enlistee career by any means, just giving you some things to think about.

As Tuberoller pointed out earlier, I would be cautious about recruiters. (Tubes was a Marine recruiter, so he speaks from experience.) I know this recruiter seems like he's on your side, but they're trained to seem that way, so you can never be sure what part of it is an act and what part is real. Like any salesperson (cars, insurance, financial advisors, etc.), they're trained to present the best side of a story, and they're trained to notice when you might be having doubts and the most effective tactics to silence those doubts. Being smart doesn't put you at an advantage in this kind of situation -- though it seems like it does -- because smart people have a tendency to rationalize, convincing themselves of things "logically" that they may sense on a more gut-level to be false. I'm sure you know all this, but I thought I'd say it anyway since it was part of the reason why I suggested looking for an independent mentor in my previous post. You can't trust a recruiter to give you an independent view; by definition he is not independent, no matter how much he seems to be. Mentors can be incredibly valuable, because they've seen through experience what works and what doesn't; they've watched what paths have gotten people somewhere and what paths have been painful or led people astray. e.g. Usagi's observation that seven of his friends pledged to go to college after their enlistment, but only one of them managed to, for various reasons. That's the kind of information only an experienced voice can help provide you with.

Just looking at it logically, it sounds to me like you may be taking a very indirect, hard, even perhaps unlikely route to get where you want to go. From what I'm hearing you say, it does sound like you have your eye on becoming an officer, and that a career as a welder (or a similar gig) is not your long term goal. I have nothing against welders or other tradesmen; many of these are excellent, even superb, jobs, but when you talk about being interested in robotics and similar types of things, having the intelligence to get into Carnegie Mellon, and finding introductory college courses boring, I suspect you would find welding (or similar jobs) somewhat boring because they won't be enough of a challenge or a match for your talents.

The thing is, though, you're not moving in a direction that will likely take you to being an officer or going to college. It could happen, but remember Tuberoller's observation that many people have their route planned out through the military when they enlist but it hardly ever pans out? That's not his pessimism, it's just the way the probabilities tend to work. Let's say there's a 2 out of 3 chance you land a job you like as an enlistee. There's probably a 1 in 8 (maybe lower) probability you can land a spot from there that will take you to being an officer. From Usagi's data points, if you end up leaving the service, there 1 in 7 chance circumstances will lend themselves to finishing college. (Plus, what if you made it through a year or two of college but got called up as part of the reserves for another two years?) I mean, it could all happen exactly right. You could be the exception, but depending on exceptions is a really hard road.

Think about how much more likely you would be to end up as an officer if you went straight to college and did ROTC. The odds are so much better. And you'd have your degree for sure, if you later decided the Navy was not for you.

I understand your reluctance better now... you feel that college won't be challenging enough and you'll get bored and flunk out. But this is largely a self-sabotaging way of thinking. With any big endeavor, a person can think of multiple bad outcomes, but successful people don't go through life fearing to try because of the possibility of failure. Especially in this case, where it's possible to mitigate boredom. You've already cleared away some of the most boring classes. If you want a harder load, take more classes. This will also get you to the advanced, interesting stuff faster. If you want something more interesting, volunteer to work on research with a professor. Work out an agreement with a professor to do a special project for a class instead of doing the coursework. Take a graduate level class every semester. Do something out of your comfort zone, like volunteering in a hospital. There are a lot of strategies you can use to avoid boredom if it becomes a problem. Just don't let problems stop you from getting started.

DanG's story about flunking out is relevant, but there is a major difference between taking a couple years off and taking six years off. Weigh Usagi's friends' experience against that. And, again, DanG tried and failed before going the alternate route. It just makes more logical sense to try first, before committing yourself to "the toughest and crapiest 6 years of your life" (DanG's words). Plus, I suspect you wouldn't have the drinking (or similar) issues that DanG had, judging from the sense of you I've gotten from your past postings.

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Originally Posted by Usagi It's very difficult to go back to college after completing your service. When I was in the military my friends and I vowed to deny our reenlistment and pursue college "full-time". Out of seven vowing members, I was the only one to take on this task. But to do this was to take a huge step back. An analogy would be like driving 1000 miles in the wrong direction (1609 kilometers for you European folks) and having to backtrack to take the right fork in the road. The # 1 downfall for young people is poor decision making and the inability to properly read their environment and/or situation. Don't be so eager to throw yourself off Bonzai Cliff just yet.

I really agree with this. Especially the last part. I've been there myself. I know I'm repeating myself, but this is where a mentor or trusted advisor, even if he's not in exactly the same type of career you might want (or even if you don't know what you want), can really be of assistance, giving you a fresh, independent view of the situation.

I know you haven't asked for advice, but if I were in your place, I'd probably ask the recruiter for a six month or one year deferment, to think about things. It sounds like you're not entirely sure of yourself as a person or of what path you want to take in life or what you expect to get out of the Navy (as evidenced by you hoping for an officer path but going the enlistee route), and it's safer to take time off now than commit to a long term endeavor that might not be right for you. Take college courses in the meantime, or work at an entry-level job, or travel (even if just around nearby states). If you take the time to decide what you want, you'll be happier later on, even if you ultimately decide to enlist.

 

[Stephonovich]

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Originally Posted by PSmith08 Stephonovich: I don't know if this is something you're interested in, but you might consider seeing if you could get an appointment to the USNA. You could get your college and your naval career, all in one convenient package. It's, at least, something to look into.

I've thought about it, yes. My only problem (and indeed, with any University) is a lack of extra-curricular activities. I wouldn't say I'm a recluse, but being homeschooled does rather limit your ability to do a lot of things. Sports, for example, are a big one with a lot of places. USNA included. I for one loathe sports. Basketball is the only one I find even remotely fun. Not sure why, because I suck at it, as with all others.

In any case, I was bored, so I submitted a pre-application. I was browsing around their site, and apparently they take people in Active Duty as well. So there's another shot for me. I have a feeling that's going to be my only way out. I went down to the recruiter's today and the general feeling was "You signed, you're in". I blame no one but myself, but in any case, this gives me some hope.

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Originally Posted by IstariAsuka Yeah, all the introductory classes and gen-ed classes are going to totally suck. Can't get around that. However, they're usually so incredibly easy that you can get an A (or AT LEAST a B) while doing essentially no work in them. If you think you'd get bored and do poorly in them, then just load up on credits your first couple semesters, as suggested above, and get most of them over with. It's easy to neglect one stupid class, but it's a lot harder to justify to yourself neglecting 4-6 stupid classes simultaneously. Anyways, once you actually start taking primarily major/minor classes the experience improves dramatically. Or, to get out of all those pesky gen-eds, probably the best way is to do take a bunch of CLEP tests. I basically did this (but with AP tests), and I entered college with 29 units (and I didn't even take that many!). More importantly, though, it got me out of ...*counts*... 8 classes. I can hardly imagine how boring my first couple semesters would have been if I had had to actually take all those dumb classes. So, in that sense, I see why you're worried about the boringness; I would have been worried about it too. But, there are definately ways of getting around that problem... with the benefit of making it quite easy to graduate in 3 years! Or, by doing both CLEP *and* those community college classes, and possibly a few summer classes tossed in later, 2 years!

I should be acing my Intro to Computers (I'm maintaining an A in the other, more advanced ones), but I'm not. Partly because I don't have the lab manuals (own fault), and partly because it's an online class. I hate online classes. I can't get into them, for some reason. There's no motivation. If it was a physical class, I could probably do it much easier. It'd be even more boring, but I'd get it done.

As for CLEP tests, believe me, I tried. AB Tech doesn't offer them, nor did anyone else in our area. So I tried testing out of the class. Nope, that has to be done within the first week of the class, or some such. I was on vacation during that time. Double yeargh.

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Originally Posted by DanG Go into the Navy being proud of yourself and your decision and being ready for everything. Just know that you'll stick through to the end and that no matter what kind of crap the Navy or your crewmates or life in general throws at you you'll keep going and will never give up. You'll come out a man and going to college, you'll see how much better you're prepared for life after the military.

I harbor no ill feelings about the Navy, believe me. Even if none of this pans outs and I do go in enlisted, I'm going to hold my head high. I consider it an honor to serve.

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Originally Posted by Wodgy You sound like a really decent guy. I thought your responses above (not just the quoted bit, everything above) was well-written and thoughtful. It's clear you're doing some thinking. I'm not trying to poo-pooh a Navy enlistee career by any means, just giving you some things to think about.

I have indeed been doing thinking. Last night I fell asleep thinking. This morning, I woke up thinking. You know one of those days, when you wake up, it's a glorious day, and then BOOM, your troubles come crashing back down? This was one of those days. I hate those. I did manage to push it out of my mind for class, though. I've decided to stop kicking myself for what I've chosen. Water under the bridge and all that.

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As Tuberoller pointed out earlier, I would be cautious about recruiters. (Tubes was a Marine recruiter, so he speaks from experience.) I know this recruiter seems like he's on your side, but they're trained to seem that way, so you can never be sure what part of it is an act and what part is real. Like any salesperson (cars, insurance, financial advisors, etc.), they're trained to present the best side of a story, and they're trained to notice when you might be having doubts and the most effective tactics to silence those doubts. Being smart doesn't put you at an advantage in this kind of situation -- though it seems like it does -- because smart people have a tendency to rationalize, convincing themselves of things "logically" that they may sense on a more gut-level to be false.

I am trying to be open minded about it, and see things from both angles. What doesn't help me, though, is how stunningly helpful and nice the Navy has been. You're right, they're trying to sell themselves, but it's rather difficult to be objective about someone when they're giving you the world on a platter. I will say one thing about my recruiter, though, they are among the best. Down at MEPS, I was talking to other recruits, and heard awful stories. One poor kid was told by his recruiter that he'd be arrested if he didn't join, just because he set up an appointment. Awful stuff.

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Just looking at it logically, it sounds to me like you may be taking a very indirect, hard, even perhaps unlikely route to get where you want to go. From what I'm hearing you say, it does sound like you have your eye on becoming an officer, and that a career as a welder (or a similar gig) is not your long term goal. I have nothing against welders or other tradesmen; many of these are excellent, even superb, jobs, but when you talk about being interested in robotics and similar types of things, having the intelligence to get into Carnegie Mellon, and finding introductory college courses boring, I suspect you would find welding (or similar jobs) somewhat boring because they won't be enough of a challenge or a match for your talents.

I said I felt robotics would be an interesting job, yes. However, I don't know if it's a good choice. As I mentioned, they're changing so rapidly by the time I graduated, my degree woud be half worthless due to new methods. It's the same with computers. It boggles my mind why anyone goes for CS these days. It's out of date after a year.

And I had no intention of being a welder, BTW. More likely Electrician's Mate, although Machinist's Mate is tempting because, as I mentioned before, I like working on tangible things that I can see. I've done some electrical work before, and while interesting, it's not quite the same as, say, an engine. (or a reactor) Of course, MM does have the distinct disadvantage that you're working in between two massive steam pipes, which makes the temperature of the room about 120F.

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Think about how much more likely you would be to end up as an officer if you went straight to college and did ROTC. The odds are so much better. And you'd have your degree for sure, if you later decided the Navy was not for you.

Odds? What odds? They're 1:1

In any case, I'm checking all my options out. I don't think I can change my current path, but I may be able to introduce a detour, if that makes any sense.

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I know you haven't asked for advice, but if I were in your place, I'd probably ask the recruiter for a six month or one year deferment, to think about things. It sounds like you're not entirely sure of yourself as a person or of what path you want to take in life or what you expect to get out of the Navy (as evidenced by you hoping for an officer path but going the enlistee route), and it's safer to take time off now than commit to a long term endeavor that might not be right for you. Take college courses in the meantime, or work at an entry-level job, or travel (even if just around nearby states). If you take the time to decide what you want, you'll be happier later on, even if you ultimately decide to enlist.

My ship date currently isn't until November, and it's very likely to be shoved back even further. The problem with requesting things to be pushed back further (other than my 1 year maximum limit - I have until May at the most) is you can lose jobs you had held. If, for instance, I got Nuc, they could drop me if I shoved it back. They take it as a sign of uncertainty, or something.

 

[Tuberoller]

I do want to add that many military "jobs" offer the very best training you can get. Often the things you learn are not taught in civilian institutions. I have 3 welders and 14 electricians working for me who were all trained in the military. Every one (which includes 4 women now) is very highly skilled and is worth every penny I pay them. In sharp contrast,I employ other skilled workers who were trained in trade schools,that I feel cheated by every time I sign a payroll check. I offer this info so that none of us discounts the quality of military training too heavily.

BTW,I was'nt a recruiter,I was a Civilian Recruitment advisor,which is a volunteer position. I basically sat at the table at recruitment events(high school college fairs,etc...) and answered questions about how the MARINE CORPS enriched my life. I sat at my table with a bio card in front of me(my wife still does this) and told kids how much I enjoyed the CORPS. I always told the truth and that caused some clashes between myself and some of the recruiters I worked with. I saw the declines in recruitment first hand and after the last few run-ins,I was never asked to return.

If none of you guys has ever been to a recruitment seminar,you should go just to see all the really neat gear. There are typically a few Active Duty there and always a full complement of weapons and other gear that civilians are allowed to handle. Take a camera and you can get some great pics of yourself with all the current issue front line stuff. I got to handle a new M240G (replacement for the M60E2 and E-3 that I had as my primary while enlisted) and I was impressed.

 

[IstariAsuka]

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I said I felt robotics would be an interesting job, yes. However, I don't know if it's a good choice. As I mentioned, they're changing so rapidly by the time I graduated, my degree woud be half worthless due to new methods. It's the same with computers. It boggles my mind why anyone goes for CS these days. It's out of date after a year.

This isn't really true at all. My dad got a degree in CS (along with EE) a looooong time ago, and it is not all obsolete, believe me. My brother is currently getting his PhD in CS. The stuff that you actually learn does not go out-of-date that quickly, it simply doesn't. How things work, the basic theory, architecture, everything changes relatively little over time. Especially if you learn it at a decent institution--I'm sure it's quite different at some schools. Anyways... yeah.

 

[KYTGuy]

Tuberoller, et al...

I have a deep and abiding respect to all who served in any branch of the military, or the Merchant Marine in time of war, and have enjoyed each of your input - have called the Daughter over to read the thread several times, and it has offered grist for her and my thinking...

I am fully aware that the beast is so large that we individually are each a little like the blind men encountering the elephant - there are many facets to this thing, and that the impressions that each of you who have been there present are (or were) valid. They are useful to know. I think that with my and your experiences, we can all agree (to some extent) that a person's career in the military is more what each one chooses, and maybe a little less what is "done to them" while in...that said, I KNOW from my experiences that all of the "flavors" we taste while we were (are) in are not pleasant, and most "flavors" we taste are MIGHTY strong. The experience is most assuredly NOT for those who like the "Bland". I wasn't injured while in, so YMMV on that account, all you Purple Heart Recipients - again, My Deepest Thanks, and Respect.

Guy

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IstariAsuka This isn't really true at all. My dad got a degree in CS (along with EE) a looooong time ago, and it is not all obsolete, believe me. My brother is currently getting his PhD in CS. The stuff that you actually learn does not go out-of-date that quickly, it simply doesn't. How things work, the basic theory, architecture, everything changes relatively little over time. Especially if you learn it at a decent institution--I'm sure it's quite different at some schools. Anyways... yeah.

Perhaps this is so. Then, most people I've known who go for a CS end up not using it anyway. To me, it's just plain stupid to get a CS and then go into, say, tech support, or repair. If you wanted that, skip the degree; get a few certs. CS is for designing the components. Not for working on them. I'd much rather get some Cisco certs than spend 4 years learning how to essentially build my own CPU. I'll never use something like that, so why bother?