Anybody in the USAF?
Jul 1, 2005 at 4:13 AM Post #16 of 46
Right now from what I understand, is that the USAF will only commission officers, off the street (non-ROTC), with certain "technical degrees". BUT if someone goes through ROTC then they will take pretty much any degree.

I'm a couple of months away from receiving my BS in Air Traffic Control. I just spoke with an ROTC recruiter about maybe going back into the USAF as an officer. (I'm not going back in, but I was curious on my chances for pilot training). The recruiter said that I would be unable to become an officer because they do not concider my degree a "technical degree", but if I were to join the ROTC program I could then be commissioned. Strange huh.......
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 12:25 AM Post #17 of 46
Guy,

I finally got around to the very large pile of unanswered emails(about 2200) and found yours among them. Sorry I did'nt get right back to you as I've been stupid busy with the racing and graduating my first full class of Fire Academy students.

As much as I am an advocate of the Armed forces and encourage young people to enlist,at this time I would advise you and your daughter to further her education outside the military. She will go much further as an officer and I can promise you she'll have many,many more opportunities as an officer. My wife came into the MARINE CORPS as an officer and made 0-4 (you guys in green should know what that is) . She made a whole lot more money than I ever did as E-5 and I gotta say Officer's quaters are really nice. My wife got allowances and re-ems for stuff I still don't understand.

I talked to DanG about enlistement into the CORPS and my advice to him stands,NEVER TRUST ANY RECRUITER......EVER. They are the "used car" salesmen of the Military. Some of the stories you read on the active CORPS and Army blogs are amazing. Recruiters are under tremendous pressure to meet enlistmentt quotas and they'll do some really terrible s**t to get your kid to enlist.

I also hate to tell you but the folks who score highest on the asvab and the other preenlistemnt aptitude tests are typically the ones who are the targets of the most salicious and dishonest tactics.

I do want to say that I feel an great sense of pride when I hear of any young person who has chosen to serve. It is,in my humble opinion,the highest form of public service. I know you are very proud of your daughter and I want you to thank her for me for making this choice.

I'll answer your email later tonight or tomorrow but please don't let your daughter go this alone. She needs your help here even if she says or thinks otherwise. Recruiters are very wary of nosy parents and typically your being there is enough to cut through several layer of deep B.S.

BTW,has anyone seen the latest round of Army and Navy recruitment ads where they say something along the lines of "My Dad is gonna kill me,but I did this for me". There is another where a female voice(it's a radio ad) says "I don't care what my Mom thinks,this is my choice". I think these ads are terrible and offer a real good example of how desperate recruitment has become.

I got a million terrible Air Force jokes
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Jul 2, 2005 at 2:02 AM Post #18 of 46
As for the officer/enlisted experience, it really depends on what you want out of it. I'm one of the few that graduated college, then joined the Navy as enlisted. Knowing I wasn't going to be a 'lifer', nor likely the training going to be of significant use once I got out, I preferred the shorter enlistment, much closer ties to my '3rd Division Gunnersmates', less responsibility in the more than occasional ridiculous order I disagreed with coming down from the top, greater freedom when in port, etc. If I was building something material beyond the 'experience' (say basic-immediate electronics training, greater savings or a start of a political career) the officer side would make much more sense. But in my case those weren't the targets and for what I was after I'm convinced was better served a step below (and arguably closer to the 'real deal'). Or maybe it takes a belief or trust in the chain of command a little stronger than I ever had before, during or after.
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I'm not sure what your daughter is after KYTGuy (nor why she joined the Air Force!
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), but I wanted to say congrats to you and her and mention my slight disagreement with the above posts.

I also quadruple the warnings about recruiters. It's common practice to use your first call in boot to call him/her and give them hell.

And Todd R, I had a dual Sculpture /Cinematophy degree before going in.
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 2:04 AM Post #19 of 46
Fred,

If you could e-mail me back sometime about the Marines I'd really appreciate it... I just sent in my pre-application for the Marines' officers' course (for next June) yesterday and if you could help me out in any way I'd really appreciate it. I tried sending a few e-mails a while back and apparently none got through. Thanks.

Dan
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 2:11 AM Post #20 of 46
blessingx,

I haven't served (yet) in the American military, but from my time in the Israeli military I can tell you that I want to be an officer if for no other reason than I know I can really watch out for myself and make sure the military can't screw me over as easily as it can screw over an enlisted guy. I believe firmly in the mission of the American military and of the Israeli military, but that doesn't mean I didn't get screwed out of a whole lot of living expenses (almost $1000, equivalent to four months' pay in the IDF for enlisted men) and lose a lot of liberties just because I didn't have parents in Israel to call my CO and say I needed to go home on time and take care of crap like bills, moving apartments, etc.

Officers get more responsibility and get blamed for things that in all honesty are completely out of their control unless they become tyrants and complete as&holes about petty things like cleanliness in case the battalion xo comes visiting. But they can always get out of it and in the end, an officer is an officer.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. But an enlisted man or woman can never have the same control over his or her life in the service that an officer can and it can be a bad idea to choose that life if it can be avoided. The military is about the biggest bureaucracy there is in any country and it pays to be even a little higher up if possible.

Dan
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 11:50 AM Post #21 of 46
I want to thank you all for your input...Crystal has passed the physical, and has sworn-in...

According to her Recruiter, now it is a matter of waiting a month or two, until she is ordered to report to the training facility in San Antonio.

To all who urged her to finish a degree, any degree - I urged that also, but she has had enough of college at this point, and feels that she needs a break, (maybe also from me/us?) We had told her that if she wuit college, she was expected to get a job, and she had been uninterested in her waitressing jobs and was NOT going to be a "burger flipper" - I get the sense that my/MyWife's attitude towards Military People, commended service as an option in her mind. For whatever reason, she has done this with little urging on our part, and we are proud, and a little worried, but it is her choice.

She is/has always been interested in the Space Program, and I guess that she thinks that the military route will allow her earlier entry. She has grown up, in that I think that she is trying to lessen the financial load of us paying for her College, and that the military might pay to send her to better colleges, and when she is more ready. Maybe she will have renewed interest, and maybe it will be more focused on a goal after a break for a year or two. She had not found any path of interest yet in her two years of college, and was already at a pretty high level in her Math and Science studies, where she was to have had to make a choice in specialty. She told me that she still had no idea where her special interests lie, and that she was losing the push to excel, something we had discussed in the past.

She has some room for growth in just the areas that the Military Life will provide, (my estimation) - she is a bit slovenly in keeping her areas clean, she has no interest in sharing the regular maintenance jobs of our family, and she "forgets" to do complete jobs...and she is not as sharp as she could be in her manner of dress...all faults that I shared when I was her age...She is pretty fearless in matters technical, as she has flown our plane at the age of 9 till 13 or so...she has an Amateur Radio Operator's License, and she has the adventurous curiosity of a precocious boy - racing, flying, electronics, diving, explosives, physics, mechanics...

She needs to be able to deal with new people better, and to get into and out of new places better. I think that military service will help those areas of her personal development.

This job she will have to stick it out, and finish it completely. This job, she will not be able to easily avoid it when the going gets rough. Some good lessons there.

My wife Pat and I have both been in with Crystal at the Recruiting office, individually and all together...I believe that this Recruiter is a straight-shooter. She has made it clear that no promises have or will be, made as to the job/specialty that Crystal gets. She has had a great career for(her words) a poor girl from a bad part of Chicago...she has a map of the world behind her desk, that she keeps updated with little flags of stations, and pins of places visited. There must be ten or so flags, and a hundred pins. Pretty Impressive for six year's service...Recruiter says that Crystal will not get too much menial jobs after BMT, as her scores suggest that she would be better used in a meaningful job.

It is about the right time for Crystal to widen her Horizons - I did the same when I was her age...I have not "meddled' in this first really BIG choice of hers - it is all hers. I just want her to be successful. Thanks again for all your suggestions - i have passed them all to her, and she is persisting on this path. Hope it turns out well for her.
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 4:46 PM Post #22 of 46
I enlisted in the Navy in April under the Delayed Entry Program, and haven't looked back since. Originally I had planned on taking the NROTC route, and while I know it would make life a lot easier once I was in, I couldn't stomach the thought of 5 (as I'd no doubt end up waiting 'till I was 18 to go to college) more years of slackerdom. I wanted out.

My recruiter were honest with me, which from what I've heard, is a rarity. They told me right up front, they can't promise me anything. They showed me what was available, and let me talk to other people in various stages of enlistment. I decided to just enlist, hope for a technical job, and take classes during my shore duty to finish up a degree. I'll have 15 credits in August due to classes I'm taking here, and between boot camp, my A school, and other things, I'll be just shy of an Associate's degree. Get a BA and I can go for officer.

As for what job I got, I discovered MEPS (Military Entrance Processing Station) can get you jobs, and put it down explicitly in a contract. I blew away the ASVAB, and was offered pretty much anything I want. Now, I really wanted Nuclear Engineering, but unfortunately for me and all other home schoolers, they make us jump through loads of hoops to get it. So I signed up for AECF (Advanced Electronics Computer Field - although I'm probably going to re-classify for SECF, which is the same, except on a submarine), with the knowledge that I can try for Nuc. If I get it, they re-classify me. If not, oh well. I filled out countless forms, wrote an essay, took yet another test, and am now waiting on a waiver. According to other Nucs I've talked to, there's no reason why I shouldn't get it, it's just a matter of time. Currently, my ship date is 02 November 2005, but it will likely get pushed back if I do get Nuc. They're rather full at the moment.

Should I have waited for college? Perhaps, but as I mentioned, I just couldn't face that future. I'm incredibly bored, and feel that I'm wasting my time sitting around doing nothing. I knew I was going to join anyway, so this is just pushed ahead a bit. Besides, with either A/SECF or Nuc, it's not terrible. You're the cream of the crop, as far as Enlisted goes. I'll be an E-4 once I'm out of my A school, with E-5 should I re-enlist for 2 more years (8 total - Advanced fields require you to sign up for 6 years), which I'll think about. I'll be able to make E-6 without any problems, in any case. And I'll be applying for Officer programs left and right during that time.
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 6:11 PM Post #23 of 46
Steph,

That all sounds really,really optimistic. I've seen a bunch of guys plot their courses through the military on paper only to see them never pan out as planned. They almost never do. I had big plans and was wounded 100 days in fleet. I recovered and was wounded again 77 days later. The sad irony here is that I failed to qualify for my chosen MOS due to my injuries. I spent the next three years getting shot at and wounded two more times. That sucked.

On the other hand my wife came in with a bio degree,became an intel officer and never had to fire a shot after boot. I still say go in with a degree as an officer.

My brother learned to weld in the Navy,earning certifications you can't even get as a civilian and makes huge bucks(well into six figures) welding the reactors for the local utility. All the welders currently working for me learned to do so in the military and they are the best out there. They are all paid very,very well.

Steph,I hope things work out for you and thanks for serving.


Guy,
It sounds like your daughter has her mind made up so at this point,I'd just go for the ride. All you can do now is support her and let her know how proud you are. She should do well in the "Chair Force"
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Jul 2, 2005 at 7:02 PM Post #24 of 46
For the sake of pulling this too far in the officer/enlisted direction (congrats again KYTGuy) if we're talking pay or training, it really depends on what fields you're planning on going into after (if you're not planning on retiring after 20... and maybe still). The path I was planning to go and the one I ended up would have gained very little directly for any military training, officer or enlisted. Really if we listed out all professions, would the military (and should the military) be connected to even of third of them? And if discussing salary out of all the under say 60 year olds I know (as you move further and further back the stats may be less connect to today as cultural changes and Vietnam draft, WWII, etc.) that ever made six figures I only know two that served in the military period. And one of those was me (dot com bubble, since bust and shifting to all education clients, mine has dropped significantly). So will say officer 1 (medical officer), enlisted 1, non-military 20ish. Like the Army/Navy games of old, I just don't think military experience/training has the power of the past. Part of that is probably a post-Vietnam society shift, but overall most likely it's much more obvious - a U.S. job shift. However again this is but one reason for the military experience.

That said, it's usually a decent chunk of time during a pretty important part of most peoples development. Ignoring possibly the argument for not entering the military for the best technical, etc. training, I'll say within the military, I think (as I mentioned before) if you're looking for a direct link to a practical output from your time in, if all things are equal, going officer is likely better for most people if they can do it (obviously we can't have more officers than enlisted and many I met were there for financial reasons - look at the economic [not to mention racial] breakdown of enlisted versus general public). Trouble is 'all things' are not equal (time required in ones life for this and likely possible beginning age for either are but two), so I'm not sure we should be necessarily arguing one over the other universally. I mean there's a big difference between going to college to be an officer and going into the military to get to college, no? And that's but one of the motivations for being in.

Not trying to be an equalizer here, just saying (as I think we all agree) there are very significant differences between those two paths in a controlled environment like the armed forces. Coupled with I think none of us has done both, we're both shaded and making assumptions about why people are making the choices they are, right?

Finally, I'm not really arguing for enlistment, just don't think the officer route is always the right choice. All things considered there's no doubt my time was better served with the guys below.

Sorry for the diversion KYTGuy. I'll bow out now.
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 8:37 PM Post #25 of 46
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller
Steph,

That all sounds really,really optimistic. I've seen a bunch of guys plot their courses through the military on paper only to see them never pan out as planned. They almost never do. I had big plans and was wounded 100 days in fleet. I recovered and was wounded again 77 days later. The sad irony here is that I failed to qualify for my chosen MOS due to my injuries. I spent the next three years getting shot at and wounded two more times. That sucked.

On the other hand my wife came in with a bio degree,became an intel officer and never had to fire a shot after boot. I still say go in with a degree as an officer.

My brother learned to weld in the Navy,earning certifications you can't even get as a civilian and makes huge bucks(well into six figures) welding the reactors for the local utility. All the welders currently working for me learned to do so in the military and they are the best out there. They are all paid very,very well.

Steph,I hope things work out for you and thanks for serving.



Yeah, I know it sounds all happily-ever-after and all. Probably is, to some degree. I mean, I'll be starting a whole new life, and one that will hopefully prove to be exciting and meaningful. I'm obviously somewhat exuberant.

I thought long and hard about whether this was really how I wanted to go about it, and I think overall, this will prove the better path for me. I can honestly see myself either getting bored and therefore dropping out of college, or doing something stupid, and becoming ineligible. I need the structure and rigidity of the military first, so I'll be trained if and when the time comes to enroll in college.
 
Jul 2, 2005 at 9:17 PM Post #26 of 46
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich
I can honestly see myself either getting bored and therefore dropping out of college, or doing something stupid, and becoming ineligible. I need the structure and rigidity of the military first, so I'll be trained if and when the time comes to enroll in college.


I've always thought this is one of the worst arguments for enlisting. It's sort of a "day care" argument -- "I'm not mature enough now, so I'll putter around in the service for a few years until I grow up." KYTguy used the same kind of argument when discussing his daughter (e.g. she'll learn to dress better, not forget chores, and clean up her messes in the service).

Staying out of the service and working at a crappy, menial job to pay your way through college will make you grow up just as fast as you would in the military, and you'll be getting an education in the meantime, not wasting your time. The only people who get "bored" in college are almost always people who aren't working part time jobs because their parents are paying or they have just enough financial support to get by. Enlisting gets you the crappy job right now but postpones the education.

Not to mention, there are aspects to the military that hinder you growing up. In the real world, you're not always told what to do. You have to make most choices for yourself and face the consequences. You learn discipline from within, not from someone breathing down your back. If you have attitude problems or behavior problems, the military will straighten you out, but if you're intelligent, I think the "day care" aspect of military service is overblown.

Tuberoller is on to something when he talks about welding -- as an enlisted person, you'd be better learning a trade like welding or plumbing or diving that translates back into the real world. That way, you're using the military as a kind of trade school, and actually getting something out of it. "Nuclear Engineering," even though it sounds high profile, won't translate into anything in the real world without a college degree. Stick to military jobs that have trade-school equivalents, and you'll be ahead of the game when you get out.
 
Jul 3, 2005 at 1:41 AM Post #27 of 46
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY
I've always thought this is one of the worst arguments for enlisting. It's sort of a "day care" argument -- "I'm not mature enough now, so I'll putter around in the service for a few years until I grow up." KYTguy used the same kind of argument when discussing his daughter (e.g. she'll learn to dress better, not forget chores, and clean up her messes in the service).


I'm not saying I'm not mature enough, however, I think if I was to go to college for 4 years, I would either become disillusioned or bored enough that I might end up doing something stupid that would remove any chances of Advanced programs in the Navy. They're very strict for those. Get caught drunk in public, and you're out of there.

Quote:

Staying out of the service and working at a crappy, menial job to pay your way through college will make you grow up just as fast as you would in the military, and you'll be getting an education in the meantime, not wasting your time. The only people who get "bored" in college are almost always people who aren't working part time jobs because their parents are paying or they have just enough financial support to get by. Enlisting gets you the crappy job right now but postpones the education.


If I were to go to college, believe me, my parents wouldn't be paying anything. Carnegie Mellon and their like (what I'd be going for) is $40K+/year. I'd be getting scholarships out the arse, for the most part. And as to the enlisting = crappy job, I'm going to have to disagree there. While it may not be desireable to some (for instance, I would rather not join the Army and shipped out to Iraq. However, I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who do), I can't think of a single military job that could be called crappy. Even cook wouldn't be that bad.

Quote:

Not to mention, there are aspects to the military that hinder you growing up. In the real world, you're not always told what to do. You have to make most choices for yourself and face the consequences. You learn discipline from within, not from someone breathing down your back. If you have attitude problems or behavior problems, the military will straighten you out, but if you're intelligent, I think the "day care" aspect of military service is overblown.


Admittedly. I don't think I'll have too much of a problem with self-discipline, though. I managed to maintain a 4.0 in both my home studies and college level classes, while having a job (electrical work) that required me to get up at around 6AM. I'd go from work to class, then home.

Quote:

Tuberoller is on to something when he talks about welding -- as an enlisted person, you'd be better learning a trade like welding or plumbing or diving that translates back into the real world. That way, you're using the military as a kind of trade school, and actually getting something out of it. "Nuclear Engineering," even though it sounds high profile, won't translate into anything in the real world without a college degree. Stick to military jobs that have trade-school equivalents, and you'll be ahead of the game when you get out.


Name a military job that doesn't have a civvy counterpart. Even stuff like Master At Arms can land you a law enforcement job. And quite a bit of it can be turned into an engineering aspect if you get a degree.

Nuclear Engineering encompasses quite a bit, actually. There's three fields in the Nuc rating; Machinist's Mate (which can also fork over to Nuclear Welding, or Prototyping), Electrican's Mate, and Electronic Technician. MM is the guy actually working and monitoring the reactor itself, as well as other related systems. EM monitors and operates the power output. ET monitors the system as a whole, and repairs the controls and like. All of them have real world counterparts. Actually, most (something like 75%) of Nucs leave after their 6 years is up, and get immediately picked up by power plants or the like. So they're obviously doing something right.

And finally, there's USMAP. Anyone in active duty can work towards a Department of Labor approved apprenticeship. All it means is you have a piece of paper that you log your hours with. You do the exact same job, but you get a certificate after x number of years. (1-4 usually) You can also opt to train in a field different from your job, if so desired.
 
Jul 3, 2005 at 5:17 AM Post #28 of 46
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich
I'm not saying I'm not mature enough, however, I think if I was to go to college for 4 years, I would either become disillusioned or bored enough that I might end up doing something stupid that would remove any chances of Advanced programs in the Navy. They're very strict for those. Get caught drunk in public, and you're out of there.


If you study something that is interesting and that you like, then you probably wouldn't be getting too bored. And what is there to become disillusioned about? It's just more school. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich
If I were to go to college, believe me, my parents wouldn't be paying anything. Carnegie Mellon and their like (what I'd be going for) is $40K+/year. I'd be getting scholarships out the arse, for the most part. And as to the enlisting = crappy job, I'm going to have to disagree there. While it may not be desireable to some (for instance, I would rather not join the Army and shipped out to Iraq. However, I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who do), I can't think of a single military job that could be called crappy. Even cook wouldn't be that bad.


Dude. If being a cook in the military isn't a crappy job, then surely flipping burgers isn't. But, I'd have to disagree. There are a LOT of crappy jobs, both in the military and out of it. I know enough military type folks to be sure about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich
Name a military job that doesn't have a civvy counterpart.


I can, however, name lots of jobs that don't have a military counterpart. And really, when you're just out of highschool it's highly unlikely that you know exactly which field you're interested in, what type of job you'd like when you grow up, etc. College is a great way to let you discover what exactly your passion is. And it may very well turn out that what you want to do with your life is just not possible in the military. If you go straight into the military, you lose the opportunity entirely. Besides, if after college you still want to do the military thing, you're a lot better off than just enlisting...

Anyways, sorry about all that, I'm a bit touchy about this type of thing right now, as one of my friends is in the process of entering the Air Force, and I'm really not sure it will lead him in the direction that he ultimately wants to go. He really doesn't seem a military type; at least not a low-level military type (which is what he'll be, obviously, enlisting). I mean, he got straight 99th percentiles on every section of the ASVAB, and could go to college before entering if he wanted--but he's won't. I really worry that he's not going to be happy in a couple years.
 
Jul 3, 2005 at 6:36 AM Post #29 of 46
KYTGuy,

Good wishes and best of luck to your family and daughter. I know when I left my cush engineering job for Army green, my parents didn't understand my motivations (hell, even I sometimes can't figure out why I joined up), but they supported me 100% and I will always be grateful for that.

Looking back, I don't regret signing on the dotted line and raising my right hand, it's been a helluva ride. Of course, there also have been plenty of times when it's sucked and I wished I was up there in the sky flying an F-16, instead of pounding ground...
 
Jul 3, 2005 at 12:09 PM Post #30 of 46
Many young Americans that enter the service have many misconceptions about what they will experience in the military. Only after enlisting and spending a little time inside do they realize the predicament that they are in. Harsh realities come to light such as, but not limited to:

1. Your stuck in a job that you loath, and can't leave or quite until your term is up or you reenlist.
-If Wal-Mart offered you a job, would you sign a contract legally binding you and your services for 4-6 years? If you quit you may go to jail and you’re branded with the equivalent of a "Scarlet letter" by issuing a "bad conduct discharge" on your DD-Form 214.

2. Have to put your life on the line by being deployed into a hostile zone.
-Some people thought or think that combat is cool, until your shot at, one of your buddies die, or you die. Take Pat Tillman for example.

3. Your family comes second to the military.
-This is evident because of the high divorce rate. Maybe your young children don't even recognize you upon returning from deployments.

4. You ultimately have to do what you're told to do. No ifs, ands, or buts,
-This is devastating if you are half-way intelligent and posses independent qualities.

5. Most of the time enlisted members of the military are treated like or looked upon as children to the officer class.

6. And for all your troubles you earn, in the first couple of years, the equivalent of $7 per hour or maybe a little over $400 bi weekly.........and that's before taxes.
-after you buy some necessities (car, car insurance, "headphone set-up", life insurance{I can't believe you have to pay for your own life insurance!}, etc.) then you have to call your mommy for some gas/fuel to even get to work!

Some of these experiences are my own and others vicariously through others. Although I served honorably, I witnessed many others chewed up by the meat grinder.
 

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