[andare]

I "attacked" Android because for me it's just the most recent example of how not to take on Apple (if that's what Google is trying to do with Android)
Android will never surpass the iPhone on the sole point of design just as Sony daps can't win the majority of people with their cell phone'like looks and controls.

Either Wired or CNET described the iPhone's multitouch as the fanciest technology out there short of jetpacks and that's why people have flocked to it even though it inexcusably lacks basic fetaures such as MMS and copy&paste

Anyway enough with this banter, sorry if I voice my opinions in a biased manner.

I switched from folder based navigation to software management (tried them all, currently on iTunes) because of smart playlists, search as you type, album art options. Nothing wrong with the former system though, in fact I could still revert to folders because I have them well organized.
iTunes is just faster for me when my girl says "put on someything sexy" while approaching the bed.
It's all about timing, people!

 

[Dublo7]

I think Android looks amazing. I like that the phone has a physical keyboard, instead of a dodgy virtual keyboard.
The OS looks very nice.

 

[Ingen]

I don't think HTC Dream intends to knock Apple out in one punch. Whereas Apple sold a bit over 1m phones in the first quarter for sale, HTC Dream is aimed at selling 400k. Even so, it would be a sizable chunk and that is just from one phone manufacturer. Google android (unfortunately in a way, as I think it's leaning far too much to... well, google) can pose a challenge but not immediately.

Although, talked to a friend of mine (not sure if it matters that she's female) and she was strongly in favour of the iphone because it's slim and 'sexy'. So as important as the OS is to a phone, let's not forget the hardware can make big differences too. Although I personally think that the limited touch screen keyboard is a pain, Apple has hit many right points with their iPhone design wise.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingen /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for owning outright, I'd not use such strong words.. falling from 92 to 70-something and now approaching 80 again, I'd give them a dominant but not outright owning. I think this is further stressed by the fact they felt threatened enough by MS players to improve their performance/cost (they're in it for the money, would they do that if they didn't think they had to to protect profits?) within the matter of days?

Come on...80% of the market and you don't htink that is outright owning it? Pretty much all the third party developers (products, software, skins etc) is made for the iPod lineage specifically because the iPod rules the roost. I'm not indicating they will hold this position forever, but for the forseeable future, no one has put out anything close to what Apple has on the market. Even products that on paper seem amazing (Cowon's Q5) are priced horribly and have less than stellar storage in comparison to Apple. The cost of the Q5 is outrageous with only 60-80 GBs available. Otherwise that unit seems incredible to me but the cost and capacity are simply ugly.

MS is doing better but save for some audio enthusiasts I've never met anyone who knows what a Zune is. Yet my 84 year old grandmother knows what an iPod is...at least having heard the name.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Although, talked to a friend of mine (not sure if it matters that she's female) and she was strongly in favour of the iphone because it's slim and 'sexy'. So as important as the OS is to a phone, let's not forget the hardware can make big differences too. Although I personally think that the limited touch screen keyboard is a pain, Apple has hit many right points with their iPhone design wise.

I think for me personally something along the lines of the HTC is the way to go for me (and a stylus with something like graffitti from palm to work with) but no doubt most just love the iPhone design. Android holds promise for folks like me. If the iPhone were more open I'd jump on it but for now...no way, particularly given the high cost and lock in.

 

[Electric_Mofo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by andare /img/forum/go_quote.gif I "attacked" Android because for me it's just the most recent example of how not to take on Apple (if that's what Google is trying to do with Android) Android will never surpass the iPhone on the sole point of design just as Sony daps can't win the majority of people with their cell phone'like looks and controls. Either Wired or CNET described the iPhone's multitouch as the fanciest technology out there short of jetpacks and that's why people have flocked to it even though it inexcusably lacks basic fetaures such as MMS and copy&paste Anyway enough with this banter, sorry if I voice my opinions in a biased manner. I switched from folder based navigation to software management (tried them all, currently on iTunes) because of smart playlists, search as you type, album art options. Nothing wrong with the former system though, in fact I could still revert to folders because I have them well organized. iTunes is just faster for me when my girl says "put on someything sexy" while approaching the bed. It's all about timing, people!

I feel like I need to point out that there will be more than one android handset. Samsung, LG, Motorola and Asus are all apart of the open handset alliance and there's rumored to be 3 more handsets from HTC expected before years end. There's also multi-touch support in the api for developers to take advantage of. Finally, think of Android as more of a S60 and windows mobile competitor.

 

[Ingen]

If Q5 has 60-80, I assume it's not trying to compete for massive size, but for players in that range. Cowon holds quite a small market share overall I believe. The two closest to Apple is Sandisk and MS I believe. I don't know about Sandisk, but I know there are a fair few companies making Zune accessories as well. Not as many as make the iPod accessories, of course.

And no, I still don't think 80% is owning outright, especially not when they are able to threaten you (as Apple must have felt over their 'last-minute' changing of nano offers).

By the way, regarding the iphone and OHA/Android.. If I recall right, RIM is the marketleader, so rather than it being a matter of iphone vs android, it should be seen as everyone vs RIM, right? Although, the "compare it to iphone!" obviously shows the power of the apple marketing department.

 

[Zanth]

RIM is a market leader for business not consumers. RIM is taking a serious hit on that front and are scrambling to get their own touch system out and as swanky as the iphone. I know a few of the developers there and am a beta tester for all their products. In terms of ease of use, the iPhone embarrasses them something fierce.

Also, in the corporate world, if one company has 80% market share, they pretty well dictate the market. MS is about the only company that can scare Apple. What happened with the Nano is that MS sucked up some losses there knowingly shorting their price in order to cut into Apple's profits. It is a strategic move, not so much to sell more Zune's (though of course they hope that will happen) but to force Apple's profit margins to be smaller so they are not as flexible in R&D.

 

[joneeboi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dublo7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think Android looks amazing. I like that the phone has a physical keyboard, instead of a dodgy virtual keyboard. The OS looks very nice.

It may not be as downright intuitive and easy to use as a physical keyboard, but when I'm trying, I can out-type any of my friends' physical QWERTY keyboards on my iPhone. It takes quite a bit of adjustment, but take a step back: will lightly tapping or pushing every single button be faster? Dodgy, depends on what you meant by that, but I like my virtual keyboard. My knock on it would be that it's not even multitouch.

 

[Pushifer]

I sold my ipod classic and bought a cowon d2.

I can't stand Itunes, i just keep my ipod nano because of rockbox.

 

[Ingen]

"RIM sold 5.6 million smartphones in April through June, up from 2.5 million a year ago, as it found new clients beyond its main business market."

Doubling their sales by expanding into the commercial smartphone market isn't my idea of "taking a hit" or "struggling"..

Is there any evidence that MS dropped their price to press Apple's R&D budget by losing money on each device made? Please give the link. Else I think it's merely a case either of Apple trying to rip people off, or MS being able to provide more bang for the buck.

PS. If MS really wanted to, they could sell their next 400m DAPs at 100$ loss each, and still not be in debt (and that's assuming they get no further profits from anything else), so.. If they really want to crush apple's profit margin, they certainly can.

 

[Ingen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joneeboi /img/forum/go_quote.gif It may not be as downright intuitive and easy to use as a physical keyboard, but when I'm trying, I can out-type any of my friends' physical QWERTY keyboards on my iPhone. It takes quite a bit of adjustment, but take a step back: will lightly tapping or pushing every single button be faster? Dodgy, depends on what you meant by that, but I like my virtual keyboard. My knock on it would be that it's not even multitouch.

The HTC Dream doesn't come with multi-touch (or not enabled?), but the android has support for it. This split makes it quite difficult to discuss the product, as I never know if someone is discussing the HTC Dream or the OS.

As for typing, having checked out a friends iPhone, I can't see myself typing text messages that fast on it. My text messages tend to be at least a few sentences long, and use punctuation, brackets, etc. At least it will prevent people putting more than one question mark after a question =) Having to tap extra times just to access such keys would probably be slower to me than being able to hit them straight away. I think it will make less of a difference when sending instant messages though

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingen /img/forum/go_quote.gif "RIM sold 5.6 million smartphones in April through June, up from 2.5 million a year ago, as it found new clients beyond its main business market." Doubling their sales by expanding into the commercial smartphone market isn't my idea of "taking a hit" or "struggling"..

I specified consumer market, where they are taking hit. I know, I have about 20 friends working at RIM, 5 in development (I'm a beta tester on all the products because of them) and the other dozen or so in marketing and research. They have not met any of the projected sales goals regarding consumerland and are desperate to correct this before the iPhone makes any more inroads. The new clients were predominantly huge corporate and government contracts, folks who were waiting on the iPhone release only to discover that it was not business-friendly enough for them and then the landslide of contracts came in.

Quote:

Is there any evidence that MS dropped their price to press Apple's R&D budget by losing money on each device made? Please give the link. Else I think it's merely a case either of Apple trying to rip people off, or MS being able to provide more bang for the buck.

MS isn't providing more bang for the buck at all. So we know it is not that case. Apple charges a premium, we know this for sure. So the rumormills at MS (from the grunts) is that MS, as in the case of the XBOX, absorbed some loss in order to hit Apple. Apple in a whirlwind motion, dropped their price immediately. Apple's margins are much better than MS' on iPod vs. Zune and moreover, they get better deals from the manufacturers because of the volume ordered which further increases those margins.

Quote:

PS. If MS really wanted to, they could sell their next 400m DAPs at 100$ loss each, and still not be in debt (and that's assuming they get no further profits from anything else), so.. If they really want to crush apple's profit margin, they certainly can.

Of course, MS is loaded with cash and their recent move to buy back $40B worth of shares is testament to the fact that they view their stock to be undervalued and are set on making some serious changes (Windows 2009 for instance) which will bolster their stock and make them even richer.

 

[Ingen]

If you read the quote, they doubled their total sales by expanding into the non-business market. What other market, aside from the consumer market, would that be then? To me it sounds like the consumer market, and thus hardly like they're suffering in it.

MS did indeed provide more (16gb for $199) than Apple had intended (8gb for $199) to the consumers, forcing Apple to drop their premium charges. I don't give too much for rumours though, as half the time they turn out to be entirely wrong. But if it is true, then we can expect MS to keep the pressure up, or increase it, as they see fit. Regardless of what the profit margin is, I have a hard time believing they're unable to supply it from other divisions. Heck, just launching the Zune outside US would up the pressure a bit.