[Sparky191]

If you like Buttons, the iPods aren't in the race.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif my mates all call ipods ipod and non ipods mp3 players or daps. they are not techies at all. many are girls who care more for nails. they have mostly non-ipod.

My Auntie looks at my D2 yesterday, she asked what iit was. I said an mp3-player, NOT an iPod.

 

[cerbie]

I find the iPods to be too expensive, but the competition doesn't help itself out.

If Sandisk, or Cowon, built players with the idea that the same thing would be updated for the next generation, they might really make it work. There is a great deal of effort in making something very different, that ends up removing potential goodness, IMO.

The iPod lacks:
- UMSD support
- possibly good buttons (Touch being exempt from the irritating wheel)
- A good EQ

...but most players lack a good EQ, and most also lack gapless playback (the most dumb lacking feature ever, IMO, since we've been using it since the first Discman!). Sure, you can go Rockboxing, but then you sacrifice battery life, and possibly have a clunky interface (depending on DAP).

Now, no one will overtake Apple. Not happenin'. But, they could make something those us who aren't thrilled about iPods would like, instead of making something shiny and curvy that doesn't have as much DAP usefulness as an iPod...which just steers us towards the iPod (read: I'm hoping the Cowon O2 will have gapless playback, but figure it probably won't).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want a Sandisk now, for some reason... More seriously. xN to comments about how the Touch/iPhone really put Apple DAPs miles ahead of everyone else. Until Sandisk makes a product that can make me an espresso, even the hot brunette won't deter my Apple fanboyism. Now, a hot redhead...

I was thinking of the same eye-rolling joke, there.

 

[E.B.M.Head]

IMHO the iPods are lacking only in two areas:
- audio quality is decent, but there are better sounding players out there
- support for audio and video codecs is minimalistic (no Vorbis, no WMA, no FLAC, no WavPack, no Monkey Audio, no AVI, no WMV, no Matroska, ...)

If Apple would fix this flaws that force audiophiles and cineasts to buy other players, then Cowon and iRiver could close their gates and Apple would have a monopoly in the DAP & PMP market.

 

[RedSky0]

For portable DAPs, Apple has the market secure. Competitors really only have the option of reaching niche markets, whether it be audiophiles, those looking for specific features like gapless, or thrifty consumers who would rather buy a more basic undercut price player. For all intents it looks like Apple is trying to branch out to most of these, they're looking to release a higher quality IEM, they are certainly adding additional features even if they're gimmicky and frankly their pricing is pretty darn competitive when it comes down to it. For the units they're shipping though, I have no doubt their average costs are damn low.

The only way I see them to lose this strangehold, is if the market fundamentally changes. But for all intents and purposes they've successfully pre-empted it with the iPhone/Touch. As long as they can innovate sufficiently and determine the market on their own terms, no one will come clear to their control. If anything they've pushed ahead too fast, I mean for the most part the iPod Classic remains unchanged from the basic iPod design. Similarly the Nano is just a redone design with a larger screen for the most part. So in that sense they've opened up a potential challenge by the Zune (the only other, relatively compact larger capacity player it seems sadly <_<)

That's not to say they'll ever become a genuine monopoly. There will always be niche products. Right now I'm waiting for Sony to release a larger capacity player because I know they have bass quality in their players down, also the Trekstor Vibez flash version looks promising. Also I'm eyeing the Ramos T8 as it's incredibly cheap, has a great, large screen and is immensely compact.

As long as competitors can offer these niche alternatives to those looking for specific features, Apple will never own the market entirely.

 

[Sherwood]

Audio Quality fixes are very possible, though somewhat subjective.

The codec fixes will never happen. Especially as concerns video codecs.

 

[dvessel]

These specific nitpicks mentioned above are relevant to head-fi but this passage is interesting and speaks a lot to their general success. Taken from the Time article I posted on the previous page.

Quote:

Ask Apple CEO Steve Jobs about it, and he'll tell you an instructive little story. Call it the Parable of the Concept Car. "Here's what you find at a lot of companies," he says, kicking back in a conference room at Apple's gleaming white Silicon Valley headquarters, which looks something like a cross between an Ivy League university and an iPod. "You know how you see a show car, and it's really cool, and then four years later you see the production car, and it sucks? And you go, What happened? They had it! They had it in the palm of their hands! They grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory! "What happened was, the designers came up with this really great idea. Then they take it to the engineers, and the engineers go, 'Nah, we can't do that. That's impossible.' And so it gets a lot worse. Then they take it to the manufacturing people, and they go, 'We can't build that!' And it gets a lot worse." When Jobs took up his present position at Apple in 1997, that's the situation he found. He and Jonathan Ive, head of design, came up with the original iMac, a candy-colored computer merged with a cathode-ray tube that, at the time, looked like nothing anybody had seen outside of a Jetsons cartoon. "Sure enough," Jobs recalls, "when we took it to the engineers, they said, 'Oh.' And they came up with 38 reasons. And I said, 'No, no, we're doing this.' And they said, 'Well, why?' And I said, 'Because I'm the CEO, and I think it can be done.' And so they kind of begrudgingly did it. But then it was a big hit." There are two lessons to be drawn from that story: one about collaboration, one about control. Apple employees talk incessantly about what they call "deep collaboration" or "cross-pollination" or "concurrent engineering." Essentially it means that products don't pass from team to team. There aren't discrete, sequential development stages. Instead, it's simultaneous and organic. Products get worked on in parallel by all departments at once--design, hardware, software--in endless rounds of interdisciplinary design reviews. Managers elsewhere boast about how little time they waste in meetings; Apple is big on them and proud of it. "The historical way of developing products just doesn't work when you're as ambitious as we are," says Ive, an affable, bearlike Brit. "When the challenges are that complex, you have to develop a product in a more collaborative, integrated way."

I'd shudder if the CEO telling the engineer had absolutely no clue but Apple is lucky they have Steve Jobs. He used to be an Acid dropping Hippie no less. Haha. But it's all about execution and they understand that. One of his quotes.. "Real artists ship."

 

[LostPhil]

I guess I fit into the "too cool to own an iPod". Or at least most people see me that way (I'm not by the way). I actually think iTunes is a pretty awful piece of software (on windows) but you can get around that now so it's not a reason against it. I don't like their design but they are more coherent than most designs so also a moot point. They have gapless and now I have everything in mp3, they support my format choice.

But hey, I can dislike a product without good reasoning, it's my money! I like to have the good-but-unknown sort of player, maybe because I'd rather have something that most people don't actually know how good it is or what it does (I don't even know for sure). A bit like my car - a Rover 25 GTi, looks like a nice but normal hatch which noone really pays any attention to or sticks their nose up at but goes like a rocket if you need it to

(actually had someone walk past saying that I'd just stuck the GTi on the back without realising I was in there!)

I actually think the Zune is shaping up to be a very good competitor - most if not all of the features added to the Zune are media orientated, wi-fi syncing, tagging tracks on FM etc. I don't mind the software as I've heard that you barely need to use it when you set up the syncing.

The Touch seems to put it's focus elsewhere. That's what's putting me off or at least the fans ("yeah, well IIii can surf the net on MY mp3 player" etc) - I'm not interested in apps unless they do something useful with my music (that iTunes remote control is useful) and I really don't care about the web browsing, I sit at a computer all day and I'd rather socialise when I'm in a wifi hotspot (mainly pubs in the UK! Well, out in the sticks anyway)! It still does a lot of good things with your media, I'm not saying it doesn't, but I get the feeling that it's main selling point is the flashy bits and I don't like it for that.

But other than the Zune, the only other competitor seems to be the Vibez which is the extreme past the Zune in concentrating on functionality. However, that is also pretty expensive.

I really want one though.

I've had Cowon DAPs for my past two players and they have served me well but they are sorely lacking in some areas (gapless anyone?) and don't seem to have any focus. I think you either need to take the Vibez approach and really satisfy the power user or take the simpler but more streamlined way of the iPod (Zune?). At the moment Cowon seem to be sitting in the middle somewhere and for the western market at least I don't think that's going to help.

Just my view of course and I will get flamed but since I don't usually go around slagging off the iPod you can stick it

EDIT: If someone says "Pepsi generation" or "MTV generation" in their reply I will personally come over and shove an unopened can of Pepsi down your gob while forcing you to watch MTV, got it?

(seriously, I get pretty offended by the suggestion, it's very condescending)

 

[dvessel]

Hey, if you don't like it, you don't and there doesn't have to be a reasonable explanation for your decisions. It's your wallet. At the same time, it makes a weak argument. Not liking something based purely on popularity is just as bad if not a little worse than liking something because it is popular. At least there's some wisdom in the crowds.. Sometimes.

I find Apple to be a really interesting company. I use their Macs to get my job done and it does a stellar job but I don't use their image as my own (what I think most object to who hold your position). The Mac is part of me as a hammer is part of a carpenter. The iPod helps me enjoy music and I think the interface is great. It gets out of my way so I can get to the music which is a big reason why I keep using them. Sound quality isn't everything to me. It plays a part but taken as a whole, it just feels right and intuitive.

 

[Chri5peed]

Interesting factoid. Steve Jobs wears trousers joined together by Velcro and man-thongs for rapid ass-kissing.

 

[LostPhil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvessel /img/forum/go_quote.gif At the same time, it makes a weak argument. Not liking something based purely on popularity is just as bad if not a little worse than liking something because it is popular.

I agree, it is a very weak argument and I agree with the other point too.

But at the same time, I've never liked the click wheel as an interface after using one (and after using my D2 for a while I don't think a touch screen will be any better no matter how well implemented - moving your hand around on the player while walking just asks for it to be dropped!) or liked the UI itself so I do have valid reasons but yes, the over-riding thing is that I just don't like it or their company, which comes across as arrogant and I hate that.

Actually, I would recommend (and think I have) an iPod to people but I always tell them their alternatives in case they didn't want one.

EDIT: Oh and I've nothing against you for using a Mac/iPod by the way! Just don't ever say to me that it "just works" ok?

 

[Fortgammon]

The Company and Marketing behind the Ipod has been so large for years now that they pretty much sealed the dominance of the Mp3 market for as long as Mp3 players are being used. Zune is the only real notable competition and
it's largely cause of it's backing by microsoft

 

[dvessel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostPhil /img/forum/go_quote.gif But at the same time, I've never liked the click wheel as an interface after using one (and after using my D2 for a while I don't think a touch screen will be any better no matter how well implemented - moving your hand around on the player while walking just asks for it to be dropped!) or liked the UI itself so I do have valid reasons but yes, the over-riding thing is that I just don't like it or their company, which comes across as arrogant and I hate that.

If it works for you then great. The last time I checked, my thumb can execute an orbital motion with ease so the click wheel works well with it.

In all seriousness, everyone has their own preferences and no one should start talking smack (not talking about you here) because their own ideas does not align with others unless there are good arguments to be made.

Quote:

EDIT: Oh and I've nothing against you for using a Mac/iPod by the way! Just don't ever say to me that it "just works" ok?

Well, it does.

Working with Apple products can mean loosing some control. File formats for example where it doesn't just work but I'm okay with that. I can be a control freak myself but I like to pick my battles and this is one where there's little gain to me for the effort in trying to change it.

 

[Ingen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcosynthesis /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the same way that most people do the hoovering instead of vacuum cleaning (hoover being a particular brand of vacuum cleaners) people refer to all mp3 players as 'ipods'

In England, you vacuum. Say hoover and you might get a raised eyebrow, and a reminder that you're not in US. In the same way, maybe there are people in other places of the world where people can distinguish mp3-players from a particular brand.

 

[Tmacfan4321]

Apple has gotten caught up in the "touch/iPhone" thing. They have completely ignored the Classic and haven't made a significant update in years. Right now, the 7G Classic has the same functionality that the 5G had three years ago.

The Zune is kicking the crap out of Apple in terms of HDD based DAPs. The flash Zune is looking pretty good with its features as well.