[gimmeheadroom]

That's you specifically, but just as you mention that "some" objectivists will reject everything if not shown in a measurement, some subjectivists will reject all measurements. The problem is the extreme end of both sides IMO. And boths sides do have an extreme end, it might not be you or anyone else contributing to this tread, but they are out there. Just like there are those the reject everything if it isn't measured.

Well, this is new. In the old days (I've been into audio since the 1960s) there were always measurement reports, but nobody, and I mean nobody! ever thought to reject the listening part as the main significant part of the review. The measurements were to try to expose any sonic issues that might concern the buyer and give an overall sense of the sound curve.

What's new with audioscientology is the total rejection of how gear sounds as irrevelant. And that is simply brainless, given hifi is about enjoying the sound of the music.

I assert that people who have not used and heard the gear are in no position to discuss its merits or shortcomings. And that applies to any sensory thing there is. For example, are there art critics who do a scientific analysis on paintings and tell you this is good, this is bad, and whoever likes it is an idiot / genius etc.?

Delusion, not science.

Bottom line is everybody has the right to like or not like something. But they don't have the right to insult, attack, etc. people who like or don't like what's on their (most likely sponsored) position based on 0 listening experience.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Well, if measurements shows differences in a plot / whatever, I have no doubt that there is something different.
As I wrote earlier, most subjectivists will acknowledge that objective differences (frequency sweep plots, ...) can be heard.

That's not even true, because what they measure is not music. Music is about harmonics, phase, timing, so many other interactions of the complete sound experience. It is clear that measuring a sine wave or sweep does not correlate to how good the gear sounds when playing music.

The other way 'round that's not the case: Some objectivists claim that as long as they cannot take measurements which differ, under no circumstances no human being can hear a difference.

Exactly, see above

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Good point, let's get back on track:
Is the Mojo r2r? I don't think it is?
I did a lot of my headphone auditioning with the Mojo 2, and it's a nice DAC for sure.

No, it's not an R2R, it's a DAC implemented in proprietary FPGA. Quite ingenious and somewhat rare.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

But isn't that true the other way around as well? Subjectivists telling objectivists that their measurements are wrong, telling them that they should think differently about the hobby?

I don't think there is such a case. The measurement scientologists attack anyone who dares to disagree with their conclusions. We have not seen the opposite here. We enjoy listening to music while they look at unverified charts for cheap gear they have never used nor heard.

I do remember a good handful of posts from people who admitted they bought DACs etc. based on the audioscientology recommendations but were very unhappy with the sound quality. I have not seen a single post where people bought gear recommended by members based on sound quality, where the person who bought the gear stated that he was unhappy with the gear and should have bought something that measured better.

And, this is notable: we are attacking the faulty thinking behind the blind faith in their leader and his unverified measurements of test signals. I have not seen any personal attacks on audioscientologists here or on their site, but I have seen personal attacks on people by a frenzied group scientologists. Indeed, this is part of their belief system and their modus operandi.

Anyway, music is fundamentally subjective and how the individual assesses his gear is the only thing that matters. Measurements are mostly irrelevant and will remain that way until somebody figures out how to measure music rather than test signals.

 

[Lindholdt]

No, it's not an R2R, it's a DAC implemented in proprietary FPGA. Quite ingenious and somewhat rare.

Yes, it's quite good, and actually the Mojo 2 is the DAC I'll fall back on, if r2r isn't for me

 

[jonathan c]

I agree, extremist of any kind, is not a good thing

Then, there’s Oscar Wilde: “nothing succeeds like excess”….

 

[gimmeheadroom]

.

Then, there’s Oscar Wilde: “nothing succeeds exceeds like excess”….

FTFY

 

[AuralQuest]

Just replying to the OP's request, ie. would OP be interested in dongle R-2R DACs,
because there are a couple of brands on the market which have released them:
• Cayin RU6 and RU7
• Hiby FC6

They are under US$ 500 but they are dongle DACs,
with 3.5mm (and balanced 4.4mm on certain models),
and no other output sockets.
Also, they are not the table-top style,
but they are portable and easy to connect, eg. to cell-phones.

 

[Lindholdt]

Just replying to the OP's request, ie. would OP be interested in dongle R-2R DACs,
because there are a couple of brands on the market which have released them:
• Cayin RU6 and RU7
• Hiby FC6

They are under US$ 500 but they are dongle DACs,
with 3.5mm (and balanced 4.4mm on certain models),
and no other output sockets.
Also, they are not the table-top style,
but they are portable and easy to connect, eg. to cell-phones.

Thank you for the input.
I would like something with more than 1 input, as I have both a streamer and a CD player that I need to connect.
For now, I'm keeping an eye on the used marked in Europe, and hoping a good deal for one of the mentioned DAC's will show up

 

[medon]

Thank you for the input.
I would like something with more than 1 input, as I have both a streamer and a CD player that I need to connect.
For now, I'm keeping an eye on the used marked in Europe, and hoping a good deal for one of the mentioned DAC's will show up

... I don't want to spoil the anticipation, but from my (albeit limited) experience in connecting a 90's Sony CD Player via TOSlink / optical to my DACs is so-so.
I wouldn't focus on this use case too much. Unless you have a super high quality CD transport at hand, sound quality through the DAC could well be worse compared to playing directly from the CD players analog out.

I tried even a quite expensive setup - Sony CDP (the 90's player mentioned above), through a 2k DDC, into my 3k DAC -- still no as good as streamer input via USB into the DAC or DDC.

Reason: Jitter / bits are not bits.

 

[Lindholdt]

... I don't want to spoil the anticipation, but from my (albeit limited) experience in connecting a 90's Sony CD Player via TOSlink / optical to my DACs is so-so.
I wouldn't focus on this use case too much. Unless you have a super high quality CD transport at hand, sound quality through the DAC could well be worse compared to playing directly from the CD players analog out.

I tried even a quite expensive setup - Sony CDP (the 90's player mentioned above), through a 2k DDC, into my 3k DAC -- still no as good as streamer input via USB into the DAC or DDC.

Reason: Jitter / bits are not bits.

Thanks a lot for the input, I appreciate it
I have a few CD players, and hopefully more after Christmas, so I haven't finalized the setup yet.
That being said, my Sony CD player does quite well via Coax into the I150 amplifier (ess 9028pro DAC chip) in my speaker setup

 

[hobbyculture555]

I have heard great things about the Promitheus Audio Solid State DAC. Though I don't own one myself. Yes. It is spelled with an 'i'. The shipping will make the price closer to 600, but the basic model should sound natural according to most people. I asked the person in charge of the company and he is still in business. I haven't heard about them in a while, and they don't often respond to emails, but they are still in business according to them. No power switch, just plug it in and leave it on. It is designed that way. Seems like it is made with care, and power supplies are of high quality. It has internally switchable gain with a dip switch which is invaluable for headphones. It may take a while to get the product built and shipped, so be prepared for that.

I also have experience with MHDT DACs, which can go under 500 sometimes if bought used. These dacs add on a tube buffer. I would consider them musical, but the gain is quite high: 2.6V or 3.0V. Makes it a bit forward sounding on the lowest settings on a headphone amp. You can lower the gain on your pc if you hook it up through usb. Hopefully this helps. Good luck!

 

[AuralQuest]

I would like something with more than 1 input, as I have both a streamer and a CD player that I need to connect.

I have the Cayin RU6 dongle DAC and the balanced output is pretty good,
and pairs nicely with many different types of IEMs and headphones.

However, it only has the 1 x USB-C input,
so it won't suit your needs.

I don't know if this R-2R, but have a look at this DAC:
Korg DS-DAC-10R
https://www.korg.com/au/products/audio/ds_dac_10r/index.php

Currently, it's on eBay and you can pick it up for US$ 260 + Delivery from Japan

Otherwise, I don't know which type of R-2R DACs are under US$ 500.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Also, as mentioned above, check the output specs especially with dongles. I suspect most will not drive full-sized gear correctly.

This https://magnahifi.com/audio-gd-r1-nos-discrete-balanced-r2r-ladder-fpga-dac/ is almost twice what @Lindholdt wanted to spend, but it comes hugely recommended and if you ever outgrow it in your main system it would serve happily in a secondary system.

The gear, company, and shop are excellent, excellent, and excellent I have 5 pieces of Audio-gd gear and numerous transactions with Magna.

I should have mentioned it earlier, I believe it's cheaper than any Soekris, the build is objectively much better, and I think most R2R fans would prefer the sound quality of the Audio-gd.

 

[Lindholdt]

I have the Cayin RU6 dongle DAC and the balanced output is pretty good,
and pairs nicely with many different types of IEMs and headphones.

However, it only has the 1 x USB-C input,
so it won't suit your needs.

I don't know if this R-2R, but have a look at this DAC:
Korg DS-DAC-10R
https://www.korg.com/au/products/audio/ds_dac_10r/index.php

Currently, it's on eBay and you can pick it up for US$ 260 + Delivery from Japan

Otherwise, I don't know which type of R-2R DACs are under US$ 500.

Yeah, I think I've come to the conclusion that I'll wait, and keep an eye on the used marked meanwhile. 500$ for a new one is not enough at this point.