Any Harry Potter fans out there?

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blainethepain /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anybody think Harry is a Horcrux?

I've heard the theory and there's both evidence to support it and refute it in the books.

Voldemort had no intention of doing anything other than killing Harry, plain and simple. We know that until he met Harry as Tom Riddle he had no idea why/how Harry survived and that Harry's survival was definitely not intentional. We also know that to create a Horcrux is an incredibly difficult process that requires one to commit an act of murder. But since clearly Voldemort didn't create a Horcrux every time he killed someone it would stand to reason that there has to be the intent of creating a Horcrux while committing the act, or something along those lines.

But then again we do know that Voldemort definitely transferred some of his powers and abilities (parseltongue being the most obvious) to Harry when he killed him. So, is he an inadvertent Horcrux? Only time will tell...

 

[hempcamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif But then again we do know that Voldemort definitely transferred some of his powers and abilities (parseltongue being the most obvious) to Harry when he killed him. So, is he an inadvertent Horcrux? Only time will tell...

The bigger question is, if Harry is a horcrux must he destroy himself or be killed to get rid of Voldemort? "Neither can live while the other survives."

--Chris

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blainethepain /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am definitely a HP fan. Can't wait for The Deathly Hallows! Anybody think Harry is a Horcrux?

I think he is. But... you never know.

With respect the possibility of Harry being vs. not being a horcrux, check this essay on the HP Lexicon: Is Harry a horcrux?.

After the unexpected and late introduction of horcruxes in the series, I think there might be even some extra totally unanticipated plot twists in store from Ms. Rowling.

The late appearance of horcruxes, in particular being apparently so crucial to the resolution of the story now, really makes me doubt that the whole story was masterminded from the beginning with those horcruxes included. It doesn't seem to be a plot twist or surprise planned from the beginning, but rather something that she came up with probably after having written the first 5 books. If she had planned it from the beginning, there would be no reason (I think) to have avoided the inclusion of any little hint about their existence.

Now I think, between 6th and 7th book Rowling might have simply thought about yet something else that had not been hinted at all in any of the previous books, and yet could be crucial to the resolution. That would be terrible of course, and it may not happen. But my point is, the lateness of horcruxes makes me think that it is possible she could do something like that again, so maybe she might have in store even more stuff like that we don't know anything about yet. This loss of trust in what the author planned and is doing is what represents a diminished quality of the overall series, to me at least.

This makes me post another recommended link, Wikipedia's entry for twist endings.

PS. The lateness of the horcruxes to me makes it almost an example of the "Deux ex machina" literary device; not quite an example of it, but almost. Needless to say, when a plot brings to mind this literary device, even if not patently using it, is in almost any case a bad thing.

 

[YamiTenshi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think he is. But... you never know. With respect the possibility of Harry being vs. not being a horcrux, check this essay on the HP Lexicon: Is Harry a horcrux?. After the unexpected and late introduction of horcruxes in the series, I think there might be some even not yet exposed plot twists in store from Ms. Rowling. The late appearance of horcruxes, in particular being apparently so crucial to the resolution of the story now, really makes me doubt that the whole story was masterminded from the beginning with those horcruxes included. It doesn't seem to be a plot twist or surprise planned from the beginning, but rather something that she came up with probably after having written the first 5 books. Certainly there would have been no reason to include little hints about their existance, even though we wouldn't have known back then that they were being hinted at. In the same manner, Rowling might have simply thought about something between 6th and 7th book that had not been hinted at all in any of the previous books, and yet could be crucial to the resolution. That would be terrible of course, and it may not happen, but my point is, the lateness of horcruxes makes me think that it is possible she could do something like that, that maybe she might have in store even more stuff like that we don't know anything about yet. This loss of trust in the writing is what represents a diminished quality of the overall series to me at least. Another recommended link, Wikipedia's entry for twist endings. PS. The lateness of the horcruxes to me makes it almost an example of the "Deux ex machina" literary device -which would be a bad thing, for me as a reader that is.

Thanks! That was the main point I was trying to make in regards to the horcruxes being introduced too late; you just did a much better job at articulating it then I did. Again, I don't have a problem with the late introduction if there were some hints dropped along the way that would have made the horcruxes a logical plot twist. But it really felt like Rowling didn't have all this planned out and it just dawned on her that she wanted something else in the last book.

Deux ex machina was more typically used in literature to get heroes out of a messy situation that there really was no way out of. I think the plot twist originated somewhere in Greek myths when a human hero would be caught in such a horrible situation that the only way out was for a god(s) to intervene and save him. Nowadays people dislike this type of storytelling because it usually defies the logic that has already been set up by the story and makes the story less believable (how believable is HP is another question

) when everything seems to be going in one direction and then suddenly the author doesn't know how to save the hero and instead throws in a plot twist/god that saves the day.

The horcruxes almost seems like a Deux ex machine in reverse. We are told who the villain is and as the hero sets out to defeat the villain we are suddenly told that there is another villain (the horcruxes in this case) that also need to be defeated/destroyed. This is all fine and dandy expect the fact that this new villain was never mentioned before or even hinted at.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamiTenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks! That was the main point I was trying to make in regards to the horcruxes being introduced too late; you just did a much better job at articulating it then I did.

I actually liked a lot the way you articulated it. This really sums it all:

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamiTenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif When the horcruxes were introduced it was more of a What did that come from?

Was just trying to elaborate more on the issue, which I think could enjoy some expansion.

I noticed you quoted my post but then I rewrote several sentences of it (as I usually do in all my posts, even this one

) In particular, I refined my reference to the Deux ex Machina lit. device.

I don't really think the horcrux is an actual example of it, I meant to say it is just almost an example of it, in the sense that it was quite odd, late, and quite unexpected (almost "forced" stylistically speaking, even bizarre) so much that at least it made me think of Deux ex machina. That's what I intended to say, even though my first sentences about it, and even my rewriting, probably didn't convey the point precisely enough.

 

[YamiTenshi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif I noticed you quoted my post but then I rewrote several sentences of it (as I usually do in all my posts, even this one ) In particular, I refined my reference to the Deux ex Machina lit. device.

That was just me trying to sound smart. Guess it didn't work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't really think the horcrux is an actual example of it, I meant to say it is just almost an example of it, in the sense that it was quite odd, late, and quite unexpected (almost "forced" stylistically speaking, even bizarre) so much that at least it made me think of Deux ex machina. That's what I intended to say, even though my first sentences about it, and even my rewriting, probably didn't convey the point precisely enough.

I knew what you meant, again just me trying to sound smart.

But I do agree with you that it was forced, which in most cases isn't a good thing. But we're going to have to wait for the last book to make this final determination. Who knows maybe the last book might actually redeem book 5 and 6.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamiTenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Who knows maybe the last book might actually redeem book 5 and 6.

I really hope so.

PS. Maybe it was me the one trying to sound smart

 

[rsaavedra]

Eagerly waiting... Hoping there will be some more posts here after the book is out, or maybe some of us will open some new threads with impressions, thoughts, etc.

 

[Kilane]

Well, i'm NOT a fan... but i've been unceremoniously dragged to every movie along with my wife (and girlfriend before that), I do have to say that the movies have really hit rock bottom for me at this point. I know all about some of the series, but having to hear about how they left things out has reached an unbearable point in this last one.

Additionally as a movie it was even pretty weak, too many schizophrenic cuts and missing characters, poorly developed everything yadda yadda.

I did however enjoy a couple of the movies so far, and one of them (Prisoner of Azkaban) approaches "good" quality movies.

 

[Riordan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ms. Rowling stated last year that she was willing to kill Harry Potter in the 7th book in order to prevent future authors from writing sequels.

i doubt that. three reasons:
1. rowling planned the whole series in advance. the general plot was set before the first book was even written, and my guess is that includes the death or survival of harry.

2. killing off harry doesn't really change the chances that someone else will try to cash in on her success. there's prequels, spinoffs, other characters to pursue.

3. it didn't work for arthur conan doyle. the poor fellow was even forced to resurrect his main character himself

rowling won't let herself get trapped either way. if she says it's over, it's over. and it's definitely over: see point 1.

 

[Riordan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif The late appearance of horcruxes, in particular being apparently so crucial to the resolution of the story now, really makes me doubt that the whole story was masterminded from the beginning with those horcruxes included. It doesn't seem to be a plot twist or surprise planned from the beginning, but rather something that she came up with probably after having written the first 5 books. If she had planned it from the beginning, there would be no reason (I think) to have avoided the inclusion of any little hint about their existence. Now I think, between 6th and 7th book Rowling might have simply thought about yet something else that had not been hinted at all in any of the previous books, and yet could be crucial to the resolution. That would be terrible of course, and it may not happen. But my point is, the lateness of horcruxes makes me think that it is possible she could do something like that again, so maybe she might have in store even more stuff like that we don't know anything about yet. This loss of trust in what the author planned and is doing is what represents a diminished quality of the overall series, to me at least.

i agree with this, minus the loss of trust. her characters are very much alive, no wonder they 'strayed from the path'...
it seems to me that all the small (and good) departures from the originally conceived plot must have added up until her originally intended ending had to be changed. enter a somewhat forced new element, the horcruxes. or she realized a fatal flaw in the original plot that couldn't have been foreseen earlier and had to change course unexpectedly. same outcome. i'm prepared for a disappointment, but in awe of her achievement regardless.

 

[Riordan]

something else: there are three characters that have to become much more prominent in the final book than they were up to now or something's gone wrong.

neville.
ginny.
and, most of all: harry's mother.

add the grossly misjudged miserable martyr (

), and i just can't see the "it's all about ron, hermione & harry" that the movies so far have concentrated on.

 

[darkangel9685]

personally, i think neville is a huge, if understated and underestimated, character in the series.

also, whats with snape?
He is, without a doubt the most complex character in a book i've seen. Why?

1) Just who is he really working for? Himself? The Order? DeathEaters? Dumbledore? I mean, DD didn't really put up much of a fight when he got killed. It was almost planned......

2)When running away at the end of HBP, he's still schooling Harry on how to throw various spells! Did anyone else think this was a little odd?

3) Why did he call himself the Half-Blood-Prince? From what I understood, it was to play up the wizarding side of his family. I don't buy it because....

4) Voldemort accepted him, despite Voldemort's notorious hatred of muggles and "mud-bloods". Anyone see anything wrong with this?

Also, if Voldemort is a mud-blood, then why is he puritanical about killing the half breeds? Isn't is hipocritical? Can someone explain this to me?

 

[sebascrub]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkangel9685 /img/forum/go_quote.gif personally, i think neville is a huge, if understated and underestimated, character in the series. also, whats with snape? He is, without a doubt the most complex character in a book i've seen. Why? 1) Just who is he really working for? Himself? The Order? DeathEaters? Dumbledore? I mean, DD didn't really put up much of a fight when he got killed. It was almost planned...... 2)When running away at the end of HBP, he's still schooling Harry on how to throw various spells! Did anyone else think this was a little odd? 3) Why did he call himself the Half-Blood-Prince? From what I understood, it was to play up the wizarding side of his family. I don't buy it because.... 4) Voldemort accepted him, despite Voldemort's notorious hatred of muggles and "mud-bloods". Anyone see anything wrong with this? Also, if Voldemort is a mud-blood, then why is he puritanical about killing the half breeds? Isn't is hipocritical? Can someone explain this to me?

These are some interesting questions...here's my take on them:

1)Snape blows my mind. I do think that the encounter on the tower between him and Dumbledore was planned in some capacity - why? I guess we're about to find out next week. As for what side he's on, I'm not sure we'll ever find out. Dumbledore always said that he trusted him, but we never know why. Unless Harry delves into Dumbledore's Pensieve, I don't think we'll ever know where his loyalty truly lies. That being said, I don't think Harry will want to find out. Given the increasingly darker tones these books are taking, I have the feeling Harry will kill Snape before too long, only to find out his true nature (good or bad) afterwards.

2)He's just being cocky. Old habits die hard.

3)I have no idea... perhaps he was playing up his wizarding side, perhaps he already knew that Tom Marvolo was half-blood and it was a clever little dig at him, perhaps he was just bored.

4)Well, Voldemort is a half-breed himself. I have the feeling that Snape knew about Voldemort before he actually became Voldemort, even though they were a couple of years apart. Also, as to why Voldemort is killing all the half-breeds, think of it like Hitler - he thought the Aryian race was perfect, even though he wasn't blond with blue eyes.

I also agree with the notion that Neville is a huge character. I mean, at the end of the Order of the Phoenix, they kind of gloss over the explanation on why Voldemort chose Harry instead of Neville, even though, according to the prophecy, they're basically the same wizard. He'll probably play a crucial role in the battle against Voldemort at the climax.

 

[rsaavedra]

I may stand corrected in a few days, but so far, I don't think there's strong evidence in the story to suggest Neville instead of Harry would be Voldemort's Nemesis. Here's the evidence I've gathered so far against Neville being the one:

- Dumbledore's speaking to Harry: "I'm afraid that there is no doubt that it is you".
- The prophecy itself says "LV will mark the chosen one as his equal". Voldemort gave Harry some of his powers, Harry is a parselmouth after all. To some extent that is a mark of being Voldemort's equal. As far as the story goes, Voldemort hasn't marked Neville in any comparable way. But maybe we just don't know yet. We shall see.
- Dumbledore says it clearly in HBP: "The prophecy caused Lord Voldemort to mark you as his equal..." (Speaking to Harry)

There's always the possibility of intentional previous misleading clues and a plot twist about all this. Dumbledore was apparently wrong about a few things in book 6, so he might have been wrong about Harry being Voldemort's Nemesis. Or he might have intentionally lied to Harry for some hidden purpose. Or simply something new that we have absolutely no idea of (like the horcruxes before book 6) might come up. There are so many possible paths.

I think Rowling might leave no loose ends with Harry and Voldemort, but she might leave some with Snape.