[AlanY]

Unfortunately, where liability is a potential issue (as it is in medicine and in law), common sense goes out the window and people do have to be cautious.

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn the problem is that there really is not informal way for a lawyer to give a tiny bit of a legal opinion about a person's predicament, especially in a public forum. it's no big secret - like it was said before with doctors, if the doctor did an informal incision into a patient and just walked away at that point - well, you can't do that. you started a cut, you committed to the patient. there's no way to give an informal cut - you either go all the way or you point the way to someone who can. it's not just to avoid malpractice, it's the right thing to do - who wants to cut someone open and just leave it to fester like that? it's not very responsible, no matter how much the person is saying "cmon doc, just a lil somethin' for the pain, eh?"

A doctor and surgery are completely different though. You aren't obligated to act on the lawyer's opinion, and it may be a simple issue where the insight could be helpful. I agree with you if the issue is complex, but to say that it's irresponsible generally seems a bit much.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY Unfortunately, where liability is a potential issue (as it is in medicine and in law), common sense goes out the window and people do have to be cautious.

liability is definitely a root of plenty of excuses, but in this case there's some sense behind not giving half-baked advice. really, the best advice is to go get some real advice for your real world problems, no? plenty of lawyers will give free consultations, and those consultations are held under attorney-client confidentiality, so if it gets to the point where a lawyer has to be brought in, they should be and it won't break the bank.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula A doctor and surgery are completely different though. You aren't obligated to act on the lawyer's opinion, and it may be a simple issue where the insight could be helpful. I agree with you if the issue is complex, but to say that it's irresponsible generally seems a bit much.

the problem is we don't know if the issue is complex or simple - getting screwed over at work can mean something as small as "my boss won't freaking take a shower and i can't take it anymore" to "i caught my boss stealing from client accounts and HIS boss fired me after i reported him, calling me a 'dirty whistleblowing (insert racist slur here).'"

i know a doctor analogy isn't perfect but i'll keep at it. let's say you have a lump you think is a solid lump of fat stuck in your throat. your pal says "i'll cut that thing out for ya." - oops, it was a cancerous mass. well you got that mass out, but now your pal has run for the hills, and doesn't want to talk to your cancer docs because he really shouldn't have cut into you in the first place, and didn't even bother doing a biopsy on that mass because he was just doing you a solid by cutting into you for a fat thing, and you only found out it was cancerous years later when an even worse lump showed up there and it was inoperable by this time, and hoCrap.

half-baked advice can be bad because it might prevent the guy from actually getting a proper looksee at the problem and giving thorough advice. i'd hate to think anyone look what i said on head-fi and relied on it for anything more important than dishing out cash for an amp or something!

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn the problem is we don't know if the issue is complex or simple - getting screwed over at work can mean something as small as "my boss won't freaking take a shower and i can't take it anymore" to "i caught my boss stealing from client accounts and HIS boss fired me after i reported him, calling me a 'dirty whistleblowing (insert racist slur here).'" i know a doctor analogy isn't perfect but i'll keep at it. let's say you have a lump you think is a solid lump of fat stuck in your throat. your pal says "i'll cut that thing out for ya." - oops, it was a cancerous mass. well you got that mass out, but now your pal has run for the hills, and doesn't want to talk to your cancer docs because he really shouldn't have cut into you in the first place, and didn't even bother doing a biopsy on that mass because he was just doing you a solid by cutting into you for a fat thing, and you only found out it was cancerous years later when an even worse lump showed up there and it was inoperable by this time, and hoCrap. half-baked advice can be bad because it might prevent the guy from actually getting a proper looksee at the problem and giving thorough advice. i'd hate to think anyone look what i said on head-fi and relied on it for anything more important than dishing out cash for an amp or something!

That seems like a really exagerrated and apocalyptic example to me. I don't why advise couldn't be proferred on simple legal issues. If someone isn't savvy enough to see that such advise isn't perfect or an ideal substitute for speaking to a lawyer in person, that's really their issue.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula That seems like a really exagerrated and apocalyptic example to me. I don't why advise couldn't be proferred on simple legal issues. If someone isn't savvy enough to see that such advise isn't perfect or an ideal substitute for speaking to a lawyer in person, that's really their issue. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yeah sorry, when I use analogies I tend to make em big, it's my way of putting a magnifying glass on the fish so you can see the scales, so to speak. That way you can see why sweating the small stuff is just as important as sweating the big stuff - 'cause it's all "small stuff!" *shoots self for using a Dr. Phil-ism"

But I'm cool with agreeing to disagree - the last thing I want to do on a chillout board is try to win an argument, hehe!

 

[amir_j]

im in Uk (although an american company lol)

This is what happened:

I applied for a advertised £28k starting salary business analyst job within same company im at now. I knew the guy who was leaving and id actually trained him on a few reports that he did.

I met all qualities required on the qualifications section. My current colleague also applied.(did my job 2 years before me)


had the interview and got an email asking to come over for a catch up few days later.

In the room the guy went on about "development needs" I had which meant they couldn`t give me the job- and they thought someone who was already quite senior would have applied.

They liked my technicals skills etc though and had decided to cancel the £28k job and instead offer me a now created £21k job re-titled "operations analyst" with "reduced scope" basicly "instead of people coming to me, they would go through him so he the manager would be taking more responsibility. load of crap as i knowfull well who would be doing work.

He also told me to not to tell my mate ie pressuring me as would offer him instead.

i asked for a job spec of new role to compare to the one i applied for but he said they had only talked about it and didn`t have one.


so basically because my salary right now is only £18k they were assuming it was enough raise and could shaft me (company has informal policy of normally giving a 10% rise)

I spoke to various senior mates who agreed bang out of order (off the record).

I tried to negoiate but wouldnt even discuss it.(Approaching wage £21k but at market was £25k)

On advice of a mate i gave ultimaum- if in 3 months i proved i could do the job then to give me the £25k market rate. they wouldn`t so declined it.

So basically because my current role on paper is not so senior they tried to fob me off.

anything i can do??

 

[Jahn]

talking as a a fellow guy in the Rat Race, NOT as a lawyer (like i had to make that caveat, right?)

-

are you currently thier employee? if not, what harm have you incurred other than being insulted at being lowballed? if you can walk away, then walk away, no harm done. if you want to work there despite being lowballed, that's your choice, especially if you sign on the dotted line - you aren't signing under duress, no one is forcing you to take a job you know is underpaying you.

it doesn't sound like any of that seedy negotiation involves something that would be protected under fed law, like being discriminated against, etc. so really it's a business decision. you want the small bump in pay and crappy job title? then take it and grin and bear it. if you think you can get better elsewhere, look elsewhere. they have the upper hand, and you have very little negotiating leverage.

 

[AdamP88]

Sounds to me like there is no real legal recourse on your behalf. Being qualified for a job in no way gives you a right to that position. And who knows, maybe those "development needs" are legitimate for the position you were applying for. Before I moved up the chain at work I sure as hell felt more than qualified for the promotion, but looking back I definitely had a few things to learn.

If this is a company you could see yourself working for long-term, then by all means express your displeasure at the jerking around, but suck it up and move on. If you're just trying to get more money and the company isn't the thing keeping you there, start looking for other employment.

 

[Tim D]

To me it sounds like they just down-sized the position for cost cuts, but as a big foo pah on their part also made an excuse about seniority. Because really to me Business Analyst is not worlds apart from operations analyst (yes its one notch higher, but that is about it...people get kicked up a notch all the time...its called a promotion). I know business analysts without BS degrees.

That or they are lowballing and bargaining because of your current seniority. In anycase its for cost cuts. Is the job as far as you can see officially cancelled? I.e. no longer on intranet postings, etc. Get the dirt (if there is any) on the position, and file a complaint to HR higher-ups in a well-written letter (showing that you at least are well qualified for a Business Analyst's communicative qualifications over an Operations Analyst

). BTW were these 'seniority' requirements explictly mentioned in the job posting? I'd exhaust all options within the company first. And after that you'd need to weigh the costs and quite possibly unrealized benefits of pursuing anything further. I've heard plenty worse that never amounted to any real lawsuits or anything. BTW only speaking from the viewpoint of a fellow corporate cog.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amir_j im in Uk (although an american company lol) This is what happened: I applied for a advertised £28k starting salary business analyst job within same company im at now. I knew the guy who was leaving and id actually trained him on a few reports that he did. I met all qualities required on the qualifications section. My current colleague also applied.(did my job 2 years before me) had the interview and got an email asking to come over for a catch up few days later. In the room the guy went on about "development needs" I had which meant they couldn`t give me the job- and they thought someone who was already quite senior would have applied. They liked my technicals skills etc though and had decided to cancel the £28k job and instead offer me a now created £21k job re-titled "operations analyst" with "reduced scope" basicly "instead of people coming to me, they would go through him so he the manager would be taking more responsibility. load of crap as i knowfull well who would be doing work. He also told me to not to tell my mate ie pressuring me as would offer him instead. i asked for a job spec of new role to compare to the one i applied for but he said they had only talked about it and didn`t have one. so basically because my salary right now is only £18k they were assuming it was enough raise and could shaft me (company has informal policy of normally giving a 10% rise) I spoke to various senior mates who agreed bang out of order (off the record). I tried to negoiate but wouldnt even discuss it.(Approaching wage £21k but at market was £25k) On advice of a mate i gave ultimaum- if in 3 months i proved i could do the job then to give me the £25k market rate. they wouldn`t so declined it. So basically because my current role on paper is not so senior they tried to fob me off. anything i can do??

Don't take this the wrong way, but judging from the grammar and communications style in your post, the company may simply not have seen you as competitive with the person who recently left and was earning 28k.

One of the harsh realities of the business world is that how you look and communicate affects how much people think you are worth. You can have the greatest technical skills in the world, but if you communicate in the style you did above, people will tend to undervalue your skills. (I realize this is an Internet forum and so you may be overly relaxed, but compare your post to others throughout this forum and you'll see that there is a certain coherency gap.)

 

[Tim D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY You can have the greatest technical skills in the world, but if you communicate in the style you did above, people will tend to undervalue your skills.

Communication isn't just marketing your skills...it *is* a skill. In fact being able to express highly technical matters in a clear concise manner is in itself a technical skill IMO. Business Analysts should have very good communication skills (not to mention a certain composure and disposition). If you are able to express your complaints clearly to HR both in writing and in person, it may give you a little more headway. If not it might confirm their current position.

Any decent HR dept should be very forthright about what skills you may need improvement on, but the one they may have a hard time being blunt about is people skills (and personal hygiene). It's very easy to tell someone that they need to know more Excel, C++, or Accounting, etc without coming across like a personal insult. Really only executive/manager level positions should really have 'seniority' as being a job requirement...otherwise its probably an excuse for something else (I do not necessarily equate seniority with experience).

 

[amir_j]

This is an internet forum so im lazy; when writing regulary I, of course , use paragraphs, semi-colons and words nobody understands! In my GCSE`s (english exams) I was straight A for english etc.
My covering letter and CV are to a very high standard, always ,and I can quote anything from Descartes to our own CEO within any conversation!

back to net talk:

but on the net who cares!, anyway the job has been re-advertised and ive reapplied

 

[acs236]

I don't think there is a problem with a lawyer giving his or her opinion online in the right context. I mean, there are radio shows of lawyers giving legal advice to callers. When I respond to any question on here, I'm not giving legal advice, but rather simply stating my opinion at a very basic level. I'm not forming an attorney-client relationship. Given that, I have a hard time believing that there is an issue here.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amir_j but on the net who cares!, anyway the job has been re-advertised and ive reapplied

Actually, it's going to be no use reapplying - you're going to come up against the same people, aren't you? If you aren't happy with it, I think it's time to walk away instead of trying to beat your head against a wall here - it sounds like you're only going to end up miserable there if you start employment with them anyhow.