[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevorlane it seems the qualias are a sure winner. it also seems the stax omegas are on the same level too. at this point i'll have to audition the headphones, and locating them for an audition could be a problem.. btw.. i do have $4500 to spend on a headphone/amp combo. i'll worry about a source later, but for now i'd like to see what i could get.

Don't forget the most important thing when chosing your system is going to be your own personal tastes. I think instead of asking "what's the best for under $4k" you should ask "what's the best FOR ME under $4k". Tell us what kind of music you like, what kind of sound you like, the importance and type you like of:

-bass
-midrange
-treble
-soundstage
-detail
-neutral or colored
-comfort
-portability
-looks (hey, it matters to some people)


There's ALOT of "top tier" stuff out there, especially under $4000. For that much you certainly owe it to yourself to get the best amp/headphones for you. Most of my knowledge on this high end stuff comes from reading hundreds of reviews on Head-fi and other audio internet sites and talking to countless people... But as for headphones this is the knowledge i can impart to you that i have learned from others But, except for a few exceptions HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED FOR MYSELF (people make a big deal of that so i make it a point to let people know

):

==============================================

Qualias - These seem to be THE fastest, most detailed and "high-tech" headphones out there today. Call them the "James Bond" of headphones.

Crystal clear in every way possible. One guy in the headphone forum even said the legendary Sennheiser Orpheus seem somewhat "veiled" compared to these. The complaints seem to be that they are EXTREMELY system sensetive. Some people also find them TOO analytical and a bit "digital" sounding. They also seem to lack some of the punch of the best dynamics. Some have described the Qualias as a near perfect hybrid of a dynamic and electrostatic headphone. If you choose to go with the Qualias, careful amp selection is in order though.

Omegas - Now these seem to be headphones i can't find out too much about... Not that many people seem to own them. I got a chance to hear them VERY briefly from the guy i bought my R10s from (about 30 mins. maybe)... The experience was short but quite amazing. From that short time i couldn't give an accurate review though... It seems that they are quite excellent for the money. When you consider that these are $1850 from Audo Cubes and alot of people think they are as good/better than the likes of the Qualias and R10s, that alone is a great selling point. From what i have read.... they're extremely detailed, as are all electros. But compared to the Qualias they're veiled. I read one review where someone called the Omegas a "HD650 on major steroids"... Some have mentioned they have a somewhat "dark" sound too. The Omegas are pretty much an Orpheus for people on a budget.

R10s - Not that you could probably even FIND these, and if you could they'd probably be an outrageous amount (but people have gotten lucky, one guy got them used for $1600 - they had them on Amazon NEW recently for $2000 - so you never know), but i'll offer a review anyway since i own them: These are widely considered the best "true" dynamic headphones around (i say true because i think of the Qualias as a dynamic/electro hybrid in sound). People seem to either love them or hate them. Why? Because they're extremely "colored" for high end headphones. They have a gorgeous, magical, and alluring midrange, lush, smooth treble, a gigantic soundstage (probably second only to the K1000s), and just amazing detail and tone all around. Complaints? Well, the lack of bass is a problem for most people. With the right amp, tubes, and cables (Virtual Dynamics are great), the bass can be extremely deep, detailed, articulate and impactful. If you choose to get the R10s, i couldn't recommend enough having Mikhail from SinglePower custom build a Supra for them (he doesn't charge any extra)... you will have NO bass problem, trust me. I have that combo along with some NOS 6SN7s and the combination is magical... These aren't headphones for everyone, but they were the perfect ones for me.

HD650s - The price is pretty much the main selling point for these cans... For $350 you get what are widely considered the best headphones for under $1300... It's really unbelievable. Then you can get a cable upgrade, woodies, and you have headphones that rival the likes of the Omegas, R10s, and Qualias for > $1000. The only complaints i've read are that people seem to think they're somewhat "veiled" and a tad "boring" sometimes. But with the right amp, and the cable and woody upgrade i think those problems would be easily fixed. Some people don't take the HD650s seriously because of the price. I've heard them myself and they are really great... I haven't been able to REALLY sit down and listen to them for an extended amount of time like i have my R10s, but, *IMHO* they just can't really compete with the likes of the R10s. But keep in mind i heard the 650 without the cable and woodie upgrade. But i would say they offer about 40% of the R10s sound at about 1/12 of the (list) price.

K1000 - The MAIN selling point of these headphones is the soundstage. They seem to have THE biggest soundstage of any headphones out there. Probably because they're more of "ear speakers". They're also extremely hard to drive, but the fact that you're buying an amp would make it easier for you to find a great amp to drive them specifically. For people that have put in the time and the effort to match the K1000s with the right system i've seen them compare these with the absolute best headphones out there and have even preferred them. They're definitely worth checking out if you have the time and money.

PS1 - If you love bass and slam, these are your dream cans. If it's one thing that remains true through every review i've read about these headphones it's that the bass on these things is amazing. Some say overwhelming. From what i've read the detail isn't up there with the likes of the Omegas (though it's still quite good) and the soundstage isn't up there with the likes of the R10s (but still good), but what they lack in those areas they make up for in pure muscle. With the right amp you could really make these babies into an all out RAWK or /V\etal machine or a driving force behind great bass driven blues or jazz music.

L3000 - For most people these seem to be a "runner up" to the R10s in almost every way possible. From what i've read they mimick the R10s so much, down to the exotic woods (Zelkova on R10s, Hakaido on L3000s) and leather. The tone and sound seems to be extremely simular between the two too; an amazing soundstage, lush midrange... But from everything i've read, the L3000s just don't quite measure up to the R10s. They do seem to have better bass though. I've also read they have better frequency extensions. But when you consider that the L3000s are around $2000 new and you're getting probably 80%+ of the R10s performance at half the (list) price, they might not be a bad choice if you love and want that sound.

Of all the above mentioned i'll list, from what i've learned (and this will just be guesstimating on my part, but it might give you a good idea and i'm SURE others will be real quick to disagree

), to be the best in each category. I'll also give them a ranking between 1 and 15 to show how close each is to the next on the list:

detail
1. Qualia - 15
2. Omega II - 13
3. R10 - 11
4. PS1 - 10
5. L3000 - 9
6. K1000 - 8
7. HD650 - 7

soundstage
1. K1000 - 15
2. R10 - 14
3. Qualia - 12.5
4. L3000 - 11
5. Omega - 10.5
6. HD650 - 10
7. PS1 - 9

Imaging
1. Omega - 15
2. K1000 - 14
3. Qualia - 13
4. R10 - 12.5
5. PS1 - 11
6. L3000 - 10
7. HD650 - 9

Treble (amount and extension, not tone)
1. L3000 - 15
2. Qualia - 14
3. R10 - 13
4. K1000 - 12.5
5. Omega - 12
6. PS1 - 11.5
7. HD650 - 11

Midrange
1. R10 - 15
2. L3000 - 12.5
3. Qualia - 12
4. PS 1 - 11
5. Omega - 10
6. K1000 - 9.5
7. HD650 - 9

Bass
1. PS1 - 15
2. HD650 - 12.5
3. L3000 - 12
4. Omega - 11
5. Qualia - 10
6. K1000 - 9
7. R10 - 8 (But, in their defense, with the right amp and cables they'd easily move up 2 or 3 spots)

comfort
1. R10 - 15 (like a feather on your head and ears, but still tight and secure)
2. Qualia - 14
3. L3000 - 13
4. Omega - 12
5. HD650 - 10 (some people don't like the "clamp" feeling)
6. K1000 - 9 (Everyone says they fit "weird" but they seem to have a sweet spot)
7. PS1 - 8 (Grados are always a bit uncomfortable)

power/punch
1. PS1 - 15
2. HD650 - 13
3. R10 - 11
4. Omega - 10
5. K1000 - 9
6. L3000 - 8
7. Qualia - 7.5

price
1. HD650 - $330 from TTVJ - 15
2. K1000 - $700 from TTVJ or Headroom - 13
3. PS1 - $1400 from TTVJ - 10
4. Omega - $1850 from AudioCubes - 9
5. L3000 - $2000 from Eifl - 8.5
6. Qualia - $3000 from Eifl - 5
7. R10 - $4250 (new) from Audio Advancements or Ziccardis - 3 (

The thing about price though is the beauty of finding great deals on used gear. Keep an eye on Audiogn, Ebay, and the classifides here and the headphone you want will always, eventually, turn up.

Even frequency response (for if you like a completely "neutral" sound)
1. K1000
2. HD650
3. Qualia
4. PS1
5. Omega
6. L3000
7. R10 (It all comes down to "if you like the color")

Here's the totals (and this is just for fun).

And i'm counting rank here, not score, so the lower the better. I also didn't include th last category in the rankings (since that's more personal taste) or price. You can decide if the price is worth it or not.

Qualia - 3.25
Omega - 3.75
R10 - 3.0
HD650 - 5.5
K1000 - 4.5
PS1 - 4.125
L3000 - 3.75

================================================== ==


If there are any headphones i forgot, feel free to mention them. Like i said, it REALLY comes down to personal preference. When i was in the market for my first REAL set of headphone system i wanted the best i could afford. I listed my preferences for the type of sound i liked. I think mine went something like this:

"Treble is extremely important to me. Not harsh and piercing or too bright, but smooth and extended, even a tad dark would be ok. There also has to be a good amount of it.

I also LOVE mids! Anything lush and creamy and extended. Think Eric Clapton's solo on I Feel Free or any of Brian May's (from Queen) work.

Bass isn't as important to me as the other two frequencies. In some music it's absolutely essential (like extreme metal, bass driven blues and jazz), but i find the type of bass is more important than the amount. I love a clear, detailed and articulate bass sound.

Soundstage and imaging are probably the most important thing to me. I close my eyes when i listen to music so i want to be able to feel like i'm in the middle of a huge room with the music enveloping me on every side.

Detail, of course is important. If i had to chose between amazing detail and amazing soundstage i'd take soundstage though. It's fun, up to a point, to hear every little thing in every recording you have. But there comes a time when i want to "feel" the music and not just "hear" it.

Comfort is an absolute must too. I listen to headphones sometimes for several hours at a time. I'm not worried about heat though as my house is always kept cool by central air."

You need to give us something like that to work from for us to make the best recommendation FOR YOU. As for the amp it will REALLY depend on what headphones you choose. An R10 and Singlepower Supra or Maestro is a match made in heaven. A K1000 is hard to drive and something like a Grace 901 is required to drive it. The Qualias are uber tricky to get the best sound out of. You'd have to talk to Qualia owners and get their opinions. I know Nik is extremely happy with his Qualia setup. If you went with something like the HD650s you could really get an amazing amp, something like a top of the line Gilmore, SinglePower Supra SDS or Maestro or simular. I think the L3000s would be happy in the same family of amps as the R10s. Omegas, of course being Electros require very specific amplification. Either buying the Stax SR007 or a Gilmore electro amp would probably be best.

 

[trevorlane]

Yeah, here's some of my music collection:

Acoustic Alchemy, James Taylor, Dave Matthews, Don Ross, a bit of Electronica, and a whole lot of Classical from the Baroque, Romantic, and Post-Modern period.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevorlane Yeah, here's some of my music collection: Acoustic Alchemy, James Taylor, Dave Matthews, Don Ross, a bit of Electronica, and a whole lot of Classical from the Baroque, Romantic, and Post-Modern period.

The Qualias would probably resolve electronica better than anything. But the R10s and classical music are a match made in heaven. My first classical experience with the R10s was with
Maazel's/Cleveland Orchestra's recording of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition and Night on Bald Mountain. Two of my all time favorite classical pieces, Bald Mountain especially for that so completely awesome, evil tone that i've never heard in another classical composition... Anyway, my first listen with the R10s and custom built Supra for the R10s with NOS 6SN7s (a must if you get it) was absolutely STUNNING. I had chills up my spine THE ENTIRE PERFORMANCE! Gergiev's version of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite was equally as enthralling.... I just sat there the entire time with my jaw on the floor. But, even over those two, my favorite listening came with what is probably my all time favorite movie soundtrack, Princess Mononoke OST and it's companion Princess Mononoke Symphonic Suite. Just listen to the clips on Amazon to get an idea of how amazing those two albums are. Usually movie soundtracks don't stand on their own as musical pieces, but Mononoke is a rare exception. The movie is excellent too if you ever want to check it out. But those two albums through the Supra... the perfectness and beauty of them practically brought tears to my eyes. And i did tear up during the final track on the Symphonic Suite and the theme song from the OST.

I've since torn through most of my (shameful, admittedly) slim classical collection... The R10s and classical music are just THE perfect match. I think the makers had classical music in mind when they built the R10s, they just do acoustic instruments - whether it be strings, pianos, horns, or voices - so extremely well. The booklet also references classical music some... They'd fit Dave Matthews perfectly too. I don't have any of his albums but i do have alot of acoustic music that would sound simular to him through the R10s... Coldplay is another band that sounds absolutely stunning throgh them - all those pianos and acoustic guitars.

Anyway, try to describe what kind of sound you like in your headphones and i'll see where i can go from there... You're talking about spending ALOT of money here. You really need to make an informed decision.

 

[john_jcb]

I hope to listen to the Qualias this week with a few different amps. For that much money I would not recommend anything I haven't had the opportunity to listen to.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john_jcb For that much money I would not recommend anything I haven't had the opportunity to listen to.

Unless you knew you could get your money back if you absolutely hated it, i completely agree. But it is possible if you know what your tastes are to read a ton of reviews to get an idea of the sound of the headphones and know if they would suit your tastes. But nothing beats personal experience.

 

[john_jcb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WulfmanJax Unless you knew you could get your money back if you absolutely hated it, i completely agree. But it is possible if you know what your tastes are to read a ton of reviews to get an idea of the sound of the headphones and know if they would suit your tastes. But nothing beats personal experience.

I completely agree. I just won't recommend anything that I have not heard for myself. When you read reviews of better amps I also look to see what other equipment the person has owned. If they have made a big step up the review does not tell you much about how the amp compares to similar ones.

 

[trevorlane]

Most of the music I listen to would do not have heavy beats, except electronica. Don Ross, Acoustic Alchemy, and Classical of course do not have voices singing so I would prefer a much more mellow sound than exactness. Here and there I will find myself listening to 80's metal, but I can use my CD3000 for that. Again I'm stepping up from a Marantz receiver + CD3000 setup, but ever since I heard a friend's HeadRoom Max + HD650 setup, I felt like I needed to step up as well. I'm more of a speakers guy myself, I have a Sansui 9090DB receiver with a pair of Bose 901s and KLH Model Six, which suit me fine, but it can get noisy and disturb everyone around me. Although 901s aren't the clearest of all speakers, the mellow sound and emphasis on mids make it ok. It seems the qualias are fantastic at accuracy, much like Martin Logans, but I'd prefer to just enjoy the music rather than nitpick every note. I also would prefer open-air phones as they sound much more expansive than the CD3000s.

 

[Natsuiro]

I'm suprised that it hasn't been mentioned yet. To be honest I haven't heard any of these high end amps, but the dynahi sounded quite amazing to me. Based on that, I can't recommend it, but I'd suggest you look into it though

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john_jcb I completely agree. I just won't recommend anything that I have not heard for myself. When you read reviews of better amps I also look to see what other equipment the person has owned. If they have made a big step up the review does not tell you much about how the amp compares to similar ones.

I won't *personally* endorse anything i haven't tried, but i will echo reviews i've read. Especially if i can remember exact quotes.

 

[tom hankins]

Any of the upper level Singlepower amps (Supra, SDS, Maestro, SDS-XLR) and whichever headphones you choose to use with it.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevorlane Most of the music I listen to would do not have heavy beats, except electronica. Don Ross, Acoustic Alchemy, and Classical of course do not have voices singing so I would prefer a much more mellow sound than exactness. Here and there I will find myself listening to 80's metal, but I can use my CD3000 for that. Again I'm stepping up from a Marantz receiver + CD3000 setup, but ever since I heard a friend's HeadRoom Max + HD650 setup, I felt like I needed to step up as well. I'm more of a speakers guy myself, I have a Sansui 9090DB receiver with a pair of Bose 901s and KLH Model Six, which suit me fine, but it can get noisy and disturb everyone around me. Although 901s aren't the clearest of all speakers, the mellow sound and emphasis on mids make it ok. It seems the qualias are fantastic at accuracy, much like Martin Logans, but I'd prefer to just enjoy the music rather than nitpick every note. I also would prefer open-air phones as they sound much more expansive than the CD3000s.

I wouldn't worry about open v.s. closed headphones. The R10s probably have the biggest soundstage next to the K1000s and they're closed headphones... But, i'm telling you honestly, for YOUR personal tastes i think the R10s would be your dream cans as well. I know two guys that are pretty connected in the headphone world. I could ask them to keep an eye out for a good used pair. I'd have to ask you how much you'd be willing to spend though. But for anything acoustic (strings, horns, guitars) and classical especially they work wonders. Even for 80's metal i like the way they keep the sound in check and resolve everything. It makes listening to extreme music easier over a long period of time which can be a good or bad thing. If you got the R10s with a Supra and wanted the "impact" that could be easily done with a tube change and bingo bango you'd have Metallica's Battery beating your ear drums with unbelievable force.

By your descriptions i don't know if the Qualias would be for you. They're so sharp and fast and detailed, the R10s are so smooth toneful. I remember Mikhail from Singlepower comparing the Qualias to a "top of the line, high tech digital instrument" and the R10s to a "Stratovarius violin". It's two very different sounds.... The problem you'll have is the R10s availability, they're OOP. If your budget wasn't limited i'd say just spend the full $4k for them and go hog wild on an amp, but since that's not possible i'll ask around for a used pair.

If i can't find one you might consider the L3000s. From what i've read they seem to be like the "baby R10s". Simular in every way, but just not QUITE as good. But when you consider they're readily available, ALOT cheaper, and still REALLY damn good headphones that fit your description nicely, they would no doubt do just fine. Plus, with the money you'd save you could could buy a better amp and extra NOS tubes to experiment with. As for an amp i can't recommend Mikhail and his Singlepower amps enough. Tell him what headphone your going to be using and he'll build the amp to your specs. Also ask him what NOS tubes he recommends. Anyone who spends the money on a Supra or Maestro deserves to here it with some great NOS tubes.

 

[darkclouds]

I'll add my $.02 to the pot. I've tried quite a few different phones and amps but have really settled on a pair of HD650 and Ray Samuels Stealth. It's the only combination thus far that have left me not wanting to change.

 

[rsaavedra]

$.02 here too:

Sennheiser HD650: $350
Zu Mobius cable...: $240
KG Dynahi (DIY)..:~$650
------------------------
Grand Total........: $1240

The sound.........: priceless!

 

[isp]

That's a good bit of money (atleast to me), so I really hope you get a chance to audition whatever you decide to go with before you buy.
I'm sure the end result will be great though, you have a lot of options with that budget.

 

[TrevorNetwork]

It is my feeling that the emphasis placed on replacement cables for the HD600/650 is GREATLY overstated. $240 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a replacement cable for $300 headphones. I would sooner spend that on a superior amp / source / music. The difference is minimal compared to any of these.