[bfreedma]

Quote:

Good points,
I thought the Speed here is something relating to transducer's Momentum, right?
 
Although a 25 hz note can be produced correctly, but few subwoofers can start/stop the note quickly enough.

 
It's all dependent upon the competency of the sub.  Once you get above the low end subs put out by some of the commodity brands, most current subs have no issue with speed, quickness, or any other adjective applied to the ability of the device to correctly produce the required notes.
 
There's been massive development in motor and magnet structures over the last decade or so, leading to the ability to control the cone and eliminate the overhang that used to create  "sloppy" bass.  Take a look at the size of the motor/magnet in the JL subs, or the use of a servo in Rythmic's offerings - either can start/stop a large cone as quickly as any small sub.  All of this is fairly easy to measure and confirm - what used to be an issue with larger subs really isn't a problem with the current generation.
 
If you're looking for physicality/impact, a larger driver is what's required.  The ability to create that tactile sensation is linked to cone displacement, so unless you have an 8" sub with an XMECH above 3", it really won't be able to compete with a 12" or larger driver's output/physicality.

 

[Sweetmeat]

Forget the subwoofer, get a buttslammer. Instant transmittal of bass energy via bone conduction. Used for many years by car stereo enthusiasts.
 

 

[obobskivich]

I agree with the "smaller being tighter" bit - but I'm gonna take another tack and say that group delay and excursion (and subsequent distortion) need to be considered beyond "no if it's moving faster it isn't 25hz" (because that's a little pedantic). Model it up; have a peek. True, there are some really good, really big subs out there - they tend to cost a small fortune (at least compared to electrostatic headphones) and be majorly huge though, and not all of them are very "musical." Certainly nothing I'd bother with combining with a pair of headphones. (And you've still got the whole crossover/integration issue with the headphones; bypass isn't really a good solution here).

As far as the overall idea - I'm gonna say it's probably not going to work out as desired. Tactile transducer would be a suitable substitute if you want more feedback while wearing headphones, but I agree with doug on the rest. If you want big, visceral impact - get speakers.

 

[bfreedma]

Quote:

I agree with the "smaller being tighter" bit - but I'm gonna take another tack and say that group delay and excursion (and subsequent distortion) need to be considered beyond "no if it's moving faster it isn't 25hz" (because that's a little pedantic). Model it up; have a peek. True, there are some really good, really big subs out there - they tend to cost a small fortune (at least compared to electrostatic headphones) and be majorly huge though, and not all of them are very "musical." Certainly nothing I'd bother with combining with a pair of headphones. (And you've still got the whole crossover/integration issue with the headphones; bypass isn't really a good solution here).

As far as the overall idea - I'm gonna say it's probably not going to work out as desired. Tactile transducer would be a suitable substitute if you want more feedback while wearing headphones, but I agree with doug on the rest. If you want big, visceral impact - get speakers.

 
I've not only modeled it, I've built it and measured the results.  Excursion is no longer a guarantee of audible distortion with the advent of servo controlled motors and/or magnet structures powerful enough to properly control a larger cone structure.  With current subs, distortion tends to be more of an issue in smaller subs as they are typically driven closer to their limits to achieve the desired level of bass.
 
Everyone's version of "big" is different, but there are a number of reasonably sized subs out there with 12" or larger cones that verifiably have none of the issues being ascribed to big subs regarding slowness, overhang, etc...   Many of these options are far less expensive than some of the headphones/amps/dacs being discussed (This is the High-end Audio Forum).  That's not to say their cost is trivial, but they certainly aren't out of place considering the gear in play in many setups here.
 
That said, I do agree that the combination of a sub and headphones isn't a good idea and will be very difficult if not impossible to integrate properly.

 

[obobskivich]

I've not only modeled it, I've built it and measured the results.  Excursion is no longer a guarantee of audible distortion with the advent of servo controlled motors and/or magnet structures powerful enough to properly control a larger cone structure.  With current subs, distortion tends to be more of an issue in smaller subs as they are typically driven closer to their limits to achieve the desired level of bass.

Everyone's version of "big" is different, but there are a number of reasonably sized subs out there with 12" or larger cones that verifiably have none of the issues being ascribed to big subs regarding slowness, overhang, etc...   Many of these options are far less expensive than some of the headphones/amps/dacs being discussed (This is the High-end Audio Forum).  That's not to say their cost is trivial, but they certainly aren't out of place considering the gear in play in many setups here.

Okay, I think we're talking past each other - we should qualify "big" and "Small" - when you say 12" I'm not thinking "big." I'm thinking 18", 21" etc as "big" - if you're meaning 6-8" subs as "small" then yes I'd agree with you; because usually those *are* being pushed up to the limit just to meet whatever marketing specs. h34r:

As far as price goes, I'm thinking of some of the ritzier models from JL, Velodyne, Rel, Paradigm, etc that can push up on $10,000 or better. That's double an SR-009 (Which is already double most other "high end" headphones). In the realm of high end speakers and amps, I realize that isn't scratching the surface, but again I think we need to have context in this discussion.

That said, I do agree that the combination of a sub and headphones isn't a good idea and will be very difficult if not impossible to integrate properly.

 

[bfreedma]

I've not only modeled it, I've built it and measured the results. Excursion is no longer a guarantee of audible distortion with the advent of servo controlled motors and/or magnet structures powerful enough to properly control a larger cone structure. With current subs, distortion tends to be more of an issue in smaller subs as they are typically driven closer to their limits to achieve the desired level of bass.

Everyone's version of "big" is different, but there are a number of reasonably sized subs out there with 12" or larger cones that verifiably have none of the issues being ascribed to big subs regarding slowness, overhang, etc... Many of these options are far less expensive than some of the headphones/amps/dacs being discussed (This is the High-end Audio Forum). That's not to say their cost is trivial, but they certainly aren't out of place considering the gear in play in many setups here.

Okay, I think we're talking past each other - we should qualify "big" and "Small" - when you say 12" I'm not thinking "big." I'm thinking 18", 21" etc as "big" - if you're meaning 6-8" subs as "small" then yes I'd agree with you; because usually those *are* being pushed up to the limit just to meet whatever marketing specs. h34r:

As far as price goes, I'm thinking of some of the ritzier models from JL, Velodyne, Rel, Paradigm, etc that can push up on $10,000 or better. That's double an SR-009 (Which is already double most other "high end" headphones). In the realm of high end speakers and amps, I realize that isn't scratching the surface, but again I think we need to have context in this discussion.

That said, I do agree that the combination of a sub and headphones isn't a good idea and will be very difficult if not impossible to integrate properly.

We're on the same page. The context of the original post was that an 8" sub was "small" and a 12" sub was "big".

 

[Currawong]

If you want Stax-like speakers, a pair of ELACs will do it for you IMO. 

 

[john65537]

I bought SRS-2170 and listened to them for 3 weeks.
Very impressed.
Its bass is not so light as many people said, maybe newer drivers have improved.
 
However, when I used headphones to watch the bass-heavy movies, like The Lord of the Rings,
there were No sub-basses.

 
Although headphones can provide better resolution and details, but they lack the most important factor for bass-heavy movies, the strong impact of sub-bass.
 
I think there's no headphone may compete with a big speaker in terms of sub-bass impact, is there?

 

[Maxvla]

A well driven HD800 comes close, but no, not really. No headphone is going to shake your body so it won't be as convincing as an actual sub.