[sander99]

Once more I'll use this quote of mine from the Smyth Realiser A16 thread, because maybe there is a relation with @luizffgarcia's bass experiences:

... actually I wanted to share one related important aspect of my experience with the borrowed A16 I had in my home, something I hadn't really noticed yet during my short demo in Munich.
One very striking aspect of listening to my virtual speakers (floorstanders with strong and deep bass) on the A16 was that the bass "experience" is totally different from listening to normal headphones. I once wrote in this thread that I always felt like something was missing in the bass when listening to headphones. At that time I thought it must be the tactile element. I have now dropped that thought almost completely. I think I now know what was missing most of all: the room! The "cursed" room modes, the bass "ringing" of the room. I actually love it! And the A16 reproduces all that perfectly, and it feels so much more natural than standard headphone bass. Of course ideally it should not be too much, and preferably without coloration, but some reverb (evenly distributed over the frequency spectrum)(also) in the bass really seems to be essential for my enjoyment.
My brain even played some funny tricks on me while listening to the A16: sometimes I could swear I felt the floor vibrating with the music, although that would have been impossible. (And no, in reality my floor doesn't even vibrate with the real speakers, or not that I ever noticed.) Some weird kind of unconscious expectation bias.

(With normal headphone listening I also feel the urge to boost the bass because it never seems to be enough even if I know it should objectively be more than enough, but I restrain myself to save my ears.)

 

[luizffgarcia]

Once more I'll use this quote of mine from the Smyth Realiser A16 thread, because maybe there is a relation with @luizffgarcia's bass experiences:

(With normal headphone listening I also feel the urge to boost the bass because it never seems to be enough even if I know it should objectively be more than enough, but I restrain myself to save my ears.)

That is very interesting, i wish i could test these!
EDIT: Jesus it cost $4k! Unfortunately this is not for me, hahaha

 

[sander99]

That is very interesting, i wish i could test these!
EDIT: Jesus it cost $4k! Unfortunately this is not for me, hahaha

An alternative is to use Impulcifer and HeSuVi, both free software. Only you need to buy in-ear-mics and maybe an audio interface for your pc. Then with Impulcifer you can measure real loudspeakers in a room to create your personal preset for use with HeSuVi.
This works for maximum 7.1 channels and without headtracking.
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Impulcifer
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/

 

[ADUHF]

I ended up creating a thread on oratory1990's reddit about this subject, i would appreciate your input either over there or here about this "too much bass" subject.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/n4dkf7/how_much_bass_is_too_much_bass/

If you want deep bass on headphones, then you should probably try some closed HPs, instead of open ones. Open headphones will probably have a more realistic sound though in most other aspects. So there are some tradeoffs with either approach.

Closed headphones are generally also easier to EQ though, particularly in the bass/sub-bass, than open back headphones. Because the latter are not as good at maintaining the pressure within the earcups that's needed to boost or extend the lower/sub-bass frequencies. Planar magnetic open headphones are generally better than dynamic open headphones for extending the sub-bass. You likely aren't getting a full +15 dB boost though even with a planar headphone. And the bass will probably begin to distort noticeably before ever approaching that.

And yes, as bigshot and others have mentioned, there isn't a really good way to emulate the visceral impact of the lower frequencies on your body that you'd normally get at a concert, or from loudspeakers in a room with a standard pair of headphones. (Though I suppose it may be possible to trick your mind into thinking you're experiencing something similar using various DSP techniques, like the aforementioned Smyth Realiser.)

I'm not sure how easy this would be to set up, but you could also potentially try adding a sub-woofer to your room. If you 're going to go that route though, then you may as well just invest in some decent speakers, and dump the headphones as bigshot suggested.

 

[71 dB]

Sounds pretty much like my amp would be capable of that +15dB boost even at loud levels though, right?

You say your amp gives 1.6 W (P) for 50 Ω (R) load. We can calculate how much voltage the amp can give:

P = voltage * current = U * I.
I = voltage / resistance = U / R.
P = U*U / R.
U = √(P*R) = √(1.6*50) = √(80) ≈ 9 volts (rms).

Assuming the amp can give this same voltage to 70 Ω load, we can calculate to power:

P = U*U / R = (80/70) W ≈ 1.14 W. Lets play it safe and make the power 1 watt.

Now, the sensitivity of the cans was 101 dB/mW. This means 131 dB/W, because +30 dB = 1000 times the power (1000 mW = 1 W ).

At bass 131 dB is at the pain threshold, so not only does it cause pain, but it is also very harmful for hearing.

An average level of 90 dB is very loud listening level and already bad for hearing. + 15 dB bass boost on that means 105 dB and peak levels higher than that, but since there is 26 dB of safety margin, power should be much more than enough.

The power reserves of your amp is not the issue here. The extreme boost of +15 dB is. As bigshot said, +3 dB bass boost is "okay", but even +6 dB starts to be a lot.

 

[luizffgarcia]

You say your amp gives 1.6 W (P) for 50 Ω (R) load. We can calculate how much voltage the amp can give:

P = voltage * current = U * I.
I = voltage / resistance = U / R.
P = U*U / R.
U = √(P*R) = √(1.6*50) = √(80) ≈ 9 volts (rms).

Assuming the amp can give this same voltage to 70 Ω load, we can calculate to power:

P = U*U / R = (80/70) W ≈ 1.14 W. Lets play it safe and make the power 1 watt.

Now, the sensitivity of the cans was 101 dB/mW. This means 131 dB/W, because +30 dB = 1000 times the power (1000 mW = 1 W ).

At bass 131 dB is at the pain threshold, so not only does it cause pain, but it is also very harmful for hearing.

An average level of 90 dB is very loud listening level and already bad for hearing. + 15 dB bass boost on that means 105 dB and peak levels higher than that, but since there is 26 dB of safety margin, power should be much more than enough.

The power reserves of your amp is not the issue here. The extreme boost of +15 dB is. As bigshot said, +3 dB bass boost is "okay", but even +6 dB starts to be a lot.

What is the actual issue though? You should check that reddit thread i created, i would like your input. Pretty interesting conversation going on there.

 

[bigshot]

Usually, the way to trick yourself into thinking you hear sub bass when you can't is a mid bass hump. The thick mid bass makes it feel like there is sub bass. The problem is, that masks one or two octaves above it, making the low mids thin out.

 

[ADUHF]

Are you using a preamp setting with your bass boost? If not, then the bass levels are probably also being clipped. Which means you're not getting the full 15 dB in any event.

To get the type of boost you are talking about, you really need to lower the other frequencies, rather than boosting the bass. You can do that by either dropping the whole EQ curve by -15 dB, so the sub-bass is at 0 dBFS. Or by adding a -15 dB preamp. And then making an appropriate adjustment on your amplifier to compensate.

 

[luizffgarcia]

Are you using a preamp setting with your bass boost? If not, the the bass levels are probably also being clipped. Which means you're not getting the full 15 dB in an even.

To get the type of boost you are talking about, you really need to lower the other frequencies, rather than boosting the bass. You can do that by either dropping the whole curve by -15 dB, so the sub-bass is at 0 dBFS. Or by adding a -15 dB preamp. And than making an appropriate adjustment on your amp to compensate.

Yep i use a -15 pre amp

 

[luizffgarcia]

Usually, the way to trick yourself into thinking you hear sub bass when you can't is a mid bass hump. The thick mid bass makes it feel like there is sub bass. The problem is, that masks one or two octaves above it, making the low mids thin out.

But then it is not really a problem, but a preference / tradeoff, no?

If you tell me there are details i will not be able to hear because of the extra bass, then it is an actual problem. And if that is the case i would love to experiment if you can point out a specific moment in a specific song, i can try listening with and without the bass boost.

 

[ADUHF]

Yep i use a -15 pre amp

Right on. If you've reduced the bass boost to only 10 dB though, then you really should only need a -10 preamp to achieve that. And are simply giving up useful volume with the -15 dB preamp setting.

 

[luizffgarcia]

Right on. If you've reduced the bass boost to only 10 dB though, then you really should only need a -10 preamp to achieve that. Are are simply giving up useful volume with the -15 dB preamp setting.

Yep i don't need the volume though, it sits at 50% even with the -15

 

[ADUHF]

Yep i don't need the volume though, it sits at 50% even with the -15

To keep the noise floor as low as possible though, you should keep the negative gain on the preamp to about the minimum necessary for your desired bass boost.

 

[ADUHF]

I am looking through Oratory's headphone graphs right now, btw, to see if I can find some closed headphones with a more neutral response to compare to your Audeze and HFM's. So you can see a little better where some of the shortcomings might be in their bass response. I will post some graphs illustrating this in a bit.

https://headphonedatabase.com/oratory

The type or quality of the recordings you're listening to could also be a factor though. I listen to some rock. Mostly classic/glam (e.g. Queen, Sweet, Bowie...) and various forms of alternative rock. And have noticed that particularly some of the older recordings can tend to be on the brighter side, without much bass. Though as with most stuff, there is a lot of variation in quality and tonal balance, due to what Floyd Toole calls the "circle of confusion".

I noticed also in your reddit topic though that you mentioned that you left the bass boost turned off when listening to classical recordings. Which seems consistent with this.

 

[luizffgarcia]

I am looking through Oratory's headphone graphs right now, btw, to see if I can find some closed headphones with a more neutral response to compare to your Audeze and HFM's. So you can see a little better where some of the shortcomings might be in their bass response. I will post some graphs illustrating this in a bit.

https://headphonedatabase.com/oratory

The type or quality of the recordings you're listening to could also be a factor though. I listen to some rock. Mostly classic/glam and various forms of alternative rock. And have noticed that particularly some of the older recordings can tend to be on the brighter side, without much bass. though as with most stuff, there is a lot of variation, due to what Floyd Toole calls the "circle of confusion".

I noticed also in your reddit topic though that you mentioned that you left the bass boost turned off when listening to classical recordings. Which seems consistent with this.

Yep, to me classical sounds natural and similar to real life with zero bass boost. But as i explained before, rock/metal sounds right to me with lots of bass because that is how it sounds in live concerts.