[Longbowman]

Hi folks,

For reference I own DT880/600's and DT770/32's. Also have a FiioE7.

So as far as I understand, the E7 will only act as a DAC if plugged in via USB, and works as an amp via line-input.

Three questions:

1. Using the E7 with my DT770s out of an LG G6, the soundstage seems to open up somewhat and it overall sounds clearer. Is the amp itself responsible for this, or is it just placebo?

2. I'm wondering if my 880s aren't being driven well enough by my Scarlett 18i8 (rated by Focusrite for 250ohm headphones), as the 770s sound better in all honesty. Does pairing the E7 with the 18i8 solve this problem? I don't know if the headphone amp or the DAC is the issue in the 18i8 (I would imagine the amp).

3. Conceptually, what contributes to volume and what contributes to quality, or do both contribute? Obviously an amp contributes primarily to volume, but does it also contribute to overall quality (i.e. frequency balance, soundstage, lack of distortion, etc)? If the amp doesn't contribute to quality, is there any point to using the 770 32's E7 with a smartphone if all it's doing is amping it and the DAC isn't being used (considering I get max desired volume levels at about 80% of smartphone volume)?

 

[kukkurovaca]

I don't have the E7 or LG, but speaking generally:

re: 1, Yes, amps can affect both soundstage and clarity.

re: 2, Dunno if the E7 will help in this setup, but there's certainly no harm in trying

re: 3, Both DAC and amp can impact both quality and volume. If you have two DACs with different amounts of power at their line out, or if you have a DAC with a variable line out (volume control) then that's going to change the volume of the signal the amplifier is starting with. If the DAC is putting out more or less power than the amp is expecting, that can cause issues. In terms of how the amp affects the quality of what you're hearing, there are different philosophies regarding what an amp should do to sound. Some prefer a "wire with gain" meaning the amp should do as little as possible to change the sound. Others prefer an amp that has "coloration" to the sound, making it warmer, for example.

For what it's worth, the E7 is not particularly powerful, I don't think, so if you're finding that your phone and the Scarlett are underpowered for your DT880, then there's a very good chance the E7 will also be.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the reason the DT770 sound better to you is unrelated to the amount of power it's receiving, could just be the difference in how the headphones sound.

 

[Longbowman]

I don't have the E7 or LG, but speaking generally:
re: 1, Yes, amps can affect both soundstage and clarity.

re: 3, Both DAC and amp can impact both quality and volume. If you have two DACs with different amounts of power at their line out, or if you have a DAC with a variable line out (volume control) then that's going to change the volume of the signal the amplifier is starting with. If the DAC is putting out more or less power than the amp is expecting, that can cause issues. In terms of how the amp affects the quality of what you're hearing, there are different philosophies regarding what an amp should do to sound. Some prefer a "wire with gain" meaning the amp should do as little as possible to change the sound. Others prefer an amp that has "coloration" to the sound, making it warmer, for example.

So does the amp affect the overall quality of what you hear because of colouration, or does it also then affect the "proper output" of the headphone, if that makes sense? I.e. if your DAC is adequate and you add a good amp, will the amp aid in bringing out the expected characteristics of the headphones, or will it simply modify it?
I'm trying to wrap my head around how these things affect soundstage and clarity so profoundly. I was skeptical about amps until I heard how much better my 32's sound than my 600's. The 770s shouldn't sound bigger than the 880s.

For what it's worth, the E7 is not particularly powerful, I don't think, so if you're finding that your phone and the Scarlett are underpowered for your DT880, then there's a very good chance the E7 will also be.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the reason the DT770 sound better to you is unrelated to the amount of power it's receiving, could just be the difference in how the headphones sound.

It was second-hand and gifted to me, so I was more expecting to use it as a DAC/Amp for the 32's out of my PC.

re: 2, Dunno if the E7 will help in this setup, but there's certainly no harm in trying

Do you know how one would theoretically set this up? The E7 has USB and line connectors, and my 18i8 has ADAT/SPDIF. Would the E7 then just be amping and acting as another DAC for the 18i8, or would one just look to amp the existing signal? For reference, I get to max listening volume with the volume of the 18i8 at about 66% and the OS volume at 100.


Thanks!

 

[kukkurovaca]

So does the amp affect the overall quality of what you hear because of colouration, or does it also then affect the "proper output" of the headphone, if that makes sense? I.e. if your DAC is adequate and you add a good amp, will the amp aid in bringing out the expected characteristics of the headphones, or will it simply modify it?

This is entirely subjective/down to personal perspective.

Do you know how one would theoretically set this up? The E7 has USB and line connectors, and my 18i8 has ADAT/SPDIF. Would the E7 then just be amping and acting as another DAC for the 18i8, or would one just look to amp the existing signal? For reference, I get to max listening volume with the volume of the 18i8 at about 66% and the OS volume at 100.

It has RCA outputs, right? You would just need an RCA to 3.5mm adapter, they're cheap.

 

[Longbowman]

This is entirely subjective/down to personal perspective.

It does indeed seem a difficult thing to measure. But surely there must be some rhyme or reason to a soundstage opening up and clarity massively increasing in a high impedance headphone, regardless of volume?

It has RCA outputs, right? You would just need an RCA to 3.5mm adapter, they're cheap.

The DAC of the 18i8 is considerably better, as far as I know, than the E7 (the E7 only outputs 48kHz and 16 bit while my 18i8 can output 92kHz/24bit, so I imagine I'd want to simply use the DAC of the Scarlett. I'll look into it if it has RCA.

 

[S3nsoryDeprivati0n]

I know what you mean. I'm going to offer that the 770s are closed back, so you will have some resonance that you won't have in an open or semi open headphone, and it enhances a widened perception.

But you are also comparing low impedance vs high impedance, current driven vs voltage driven, and more coil wraps on the high impedance headphones. You know how high impedance have a reputation for smoothing out the highs, and the overall sound in general. Low impedance apparently tend to be more crisp.

If you are looking for the physics behind this, I dont have it, but I'll bet if we study the impedance charts, we'll get a clue. But I'll bet you want to go even deeper than that...

 

[kukkurovaca]

It does indeed seem a difficult thing to measure. But surely there must be some rhyme or reason to a soundstage opening up and clarity massively increasing in a high impedance headphone, regardless of volume?

Well, part of what makes it subjective is the question of whether you want an amp to make a pair of headphones sound better, or just one that is the most strictly accurate. For example, a lot of folks like to pair a high-impedance headphones, especially ones that have a more analytical sound, with a tube amplifier that has a warmer, smoother sound, to sort of balance out the headphones.

That kind of amplifier will probably not measure as accurate as a solid state amp, especially one that is designed to function as a "wire with gain." There are different design philosophies, in other words, and what measures the best doesn't automatically sound the best to a given listener.

Now, you can definitely measure distortion, and manufacturers usually publish that info. But there is not a quantifiable metric that's directly related to soundstage, as far as I know. For that, you basically need to either listen for yourself, or read reviews. (There are also different types of distortion, so distortion specs may be misleading in themselves. This gets into sound science stuff that I don't remotely understand, though.)

Other things that can be quantitatively measured include dynamic range, channel separation, output impedance, and those can all impact how an amp sounds and how it interacts with a pair of headphones, but you can't necessarily tell just from looking at specs how an amp will sound or whether an amp will sound better than another amp.

 

[PurpleAngel]

It does indeed seem a difficult thing to measure. But surely there must be some rhyme or reason to a soundstage opening up and clarity massively increasing in a high impedance headphone, regardless of volume?
The DAC of the 18i8 is considerably better, as far as I know, than the E7 (the E7 only outputs 48kHz and 16 bit while my 18i8 can output 92kHz/24bit, so I imagine I'd want to simply use the DAC of the Scarlett. I'll look into it if it has RCA.

The 18i8 DAC function being 24-bit/96K does not in it's self, make that 18i8 sound better then better then the E7's 16-bit/48k
As CD audio is 16-bit/44K
and mp3s and FLAC normally not more then 16-bit/44K
If the audio coming from the 18i8 sounds better to your ears, then the E7, when the E7 is used as a USB DAC & head amp, then the 18i8 is better.

I would say to sell off the DT880 (600) and buy the Massdrop (Fostex) T-X0 or the Massdrop (Sennheiser) HD58X and plug them directly into the 18i8.

If you still want to get a external headphone amplifier, for use with the 18i8, then connect that head amp to the 1/4' output jacks on the back of the 18i8, use TS (not TRS) 1/4" plugs.

 

[Longbowman]

I know what you mean. I'm going to offer that the 770s are closed back, so you will have some resonance that you won't have in an open or semi open headphone, and it enhances a widened perception.

But you are also comparing low impedance vs high impedance, current driven vs voltage driven, and more coil wraps on the high impedance headphones. You know how high impedance have a reputation for smoothing out the highs, and the overall sound in general. Low impedance apparently tend to be more crisp.

If you are looking for the physics behind this, I dont have it, but I'll bet if we study the impedance charts, we'll get a clue. But I'll bet you want to go even deeper than that...

This contradicts most of what I've read here, though? Open-backed headphones are supposed to sound wider, as closed-backs are notorious for sounding narrow in this pricerange.

 

[Longbowman]

The 18i8 DAC function being 24-bit/96K does not in it's self, make that 18i8 sound better then better then the E7's 16-bit/48k
As CD audio is 16-bit/44K
and mp3s and FLAC normally not more then 16-bit/44K
If the audio coming from the 18i8 sounds better to your ears, then the E7, when the E7 is used as a USB DAC & head amp, then the 18i8 is better.

True. Haven't compared the two, this was more a specs-based speculation.

I would say to sell off the DT880 (600) and buy the Massdrop (Fostex) T-X0 or the Massdrop (Sennheiser) HD58X and plug them directly into the 18i8.

If you still want to get a external headphone amplifier, for use with the 18i8, then connect that head amp to the 1/4' output jacks on the back of the 18i8, use TS (not TRS) 1/4" plugs.

Why, exactly? I have a hard time understanding recommendations like this, especially because I hate the buy-sell thing (I'm the same way with guitars, etc). Surely the 58X aren't comparable to 880 in terms of sound signature, and the Fostex T-X0 are closed-back, are they not? I'm not looking to ditch the 880s (unless this is precisely what they should sound like, or unless driving them properly is needlessly expensive), I'm more trying to figure out how to get them working at full potential.

My concern here mainly is that lower-impedance closed-back 770s+E7 seem to sound better (as in fuller and with large soundstage) than my 880s+18i8, which leads me to believe that the 18i8 isn't driving my 880s properly, as open-backed cans in roughly the same line with roughly the same sound signature should theoretically sound more separated with a larger soundstage.

You do appear to own the 880s in 600ohm. Do you not like them very much? Also, would you consider the differences in stage significant between 770 and 880?

 

[kukkurovaca]

True. Haven't compared the two, this was more a specs-based speculation.
Why, exactly? I have a hard time understanding recommendations like this, especially because I hate the buy-sell thing (I'm the same way with guitars, etc). Surely the 58X aren't comparable to 880 in terms of sound signature, and the Fostex T-X0 are closed-back, are they not?

My concern here mainly is that lower-impedance closed-back 770s seem to sound better (as in fuller and with large soundstage) than my 880s, which leads me to believe that the 18i8 isn't driving my 880s properly, as open-backed cans in roughly the same line with roughly the same sound signature should theoretically sound more separated with a larger soundstage.

T-X0 are a variant of the T-50RP, so they're semi-open, technically. (The cup is ported.) However, they wouldn't be my recommendation if soundstage is the main concern.

I don't have the Beyers, so I can't comment on that specific case, but just because a pair of headphones are open doesn't automatically mean they will have a huge soundstage. There are some that are known for having a particularly large soundstage, like the K7XX.

 

[Longbowman]

T-X0 are a variant of the T-50RP, so they're semi-open, technically. (The cup is ported.) However, they wouldn't be my recommendation if soundstage is the main concern.

I don't have the Beyers, so I can't comment on that specific case, but just because a pair of headphones are open doesn't automatically mean they will have a huge soundstage. There are some that are known for having a particularly large soundstage, like the K7XX.

True, but literally any review I've read that compare the 3 (770, 880, 990) mention the soundstage being noticeably wider with the 880.

 

[Longbowman]

It just dawned on me that the 18i8's headphone amp/DAC quality may be the issue in and of itself, rather than one headphone or another not being driven properly. The 770s and 880s sound rather similar out of the 18i8 -- in short, okay. It's a 1st gen 18i8, for the record.

I know the E7 isn't powerful, but since I already have it -- would adding an E9 as the amp solve the issue? Is the DAC of the E7 at least decent?

 

[PurpleAngel]

True. Haven't compared the two, this was more a specs-based speculation.


Why, exactly? I have a hard time understanding recommendations like this, especially because I hate the buy-sell thing (I'm the same way with guitars, etc). Surely the 58X aren't comparable to 880 in terms of sound signature, and the Fostex T-X0 are closed-back, are they not? I'm not looking to ditch the 880s (unless this is precisely what they should sound like, or unless driving them properly is needlessly expensive), I'm more trying to figure out how to get them working at full potential.
My concern here mainly is that lower-impedance closed-back 770s seem to sound better (as in fuller and with large sound stage) than my 880s, which leads me to believe that the 18i8 isn't driving my 880s properly, as open-backed cans in roughly the same line with roughly the same sound signature should theoretically sound more separated with a larger sound stage.

I'm guessing the 18i8 built in headphone amplifier was not designed to drive 600-Ohm headphones.
A $250 tube headphone amplifier would be a good choice for driving the 600-Ohm Beyerdynamic headphones
IA Schiit Magni 3 headphone amplifier ($100 + tax/shipping) should drive 600-Ohm headphones, better then the 18i8
In the past month I have bought the HD58X and T-X0 and no regrets buying them.
And would not need a tube amplifier to make them sound their best.

To me, my $150 HD58X are a match in general sound quality, for my DT880 600-Ohm (maybe not in surround sound?).

 

[Longbowman]

I'm guessing the 18i8 built in headphone amplifier was not designed to drive 600-Ohm headphones.
A $250 tube headphone amplifier would be a good choice for driving the 600-Ohm Beyerdynamic headphones
IA Schiit Magni 3 headphone amplifier ($100 + tax/shipping) should drive 600-Ohm headphones, better then the 18i8
In the past month I have bought the HD58X and T-X0 and no regrets buying them.
And would not need a tube amplifier to make them sound their best.

So what happens when a set of headphones isn't driven properly? Is the issue just in volume as it relates to distortion, or does it also significantly affect soundstage and frequency balance?

To me, my $150 HD58X are a match in general sound quality, for my DT880 600-Ohm (maybe not in surround sound?).

Interesting. Are the 250ohm different in that regard? Most reviews say people prefer 880s, unless they want the 580 signature.