Amp + Amp?
May 22, 2010 at 2:58 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 12

shawnd2030

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 Basically only using a computer for audio and 90% of time via headphones  ... so
 
If I get a DAC with a built-in amp like E-Mu 0404 (or something in that quality range) is it possible to also get an external headphone amp?  It is a good idea? Or is it bad to go DAC -> Amp -> Amp -> headphones?
 
Thanks
 
May 22, 2010 at 3:08 PM Post #2 of 12
Even better, find a DAC/Amp combo unit that can also act as a DAC-Only unit aswell.  Such as the 0404 USB you mentioned.  As long as it has 'line outs' via either TRS, RCA, stereo miniplug, or XLR, you can feed that to another amp with no loss.
 
Actually double amping though, would offer some distortion.
 
May 22, 2010 at 11:56 PM Post #4 of 12
Quote:
So the data is only "amped" when it is coming out of the headphone jack? Sorry if I am over simplifying.
 

 
Very basically, yes.  Sometimes you can configure a computer's headphone jack to switch to a line out aswell.
 
May 24, 2010 at 2:13 AM Post #5 of 12
in the car audio world.. you can feed an amplifier extra voltage through the line-in inputs to 'overclock' the amplifier.
such a circumstance is made possible by gadgets that go by the term 'line-driver' which takes a 2-4volt signal and amplifys it to 7-13volts.
of course it totally depends on how well the amplifier handles the increase in voltage at the line-in input.
 
doing this with headphone amps may or may not have the same results.
but if your line-out produces 2volts.. you can use the amplifier output and adjust the volume until the voltage is the same.
however, there are other things to consider.
such as this amp + this amp = not a flat frequency response.
 
and in opposition.. this amp + this amp = a more flat frequency response.
 
you really need to know the details of what you are working with so you can find the results of the equation.
 
doing dac + amp + amp = headphones might make the sound funky.
you almost might blow the second amp that the headphones are plugged into if the amp cant handle the extra input voltage.
 
in all truth of reality.. you might be making a monster or you might be setting yourself up for burnt up electronics.
 
May 24, 2010 at 11:56 AM Post #6 of 12
Oh I am not trying to do amp + amp.  i was just pleased to realize you are not necessarily stuck with the built-in amp in an DAC/Amp combo.  You can bypass the amp via not using the headphone port.
 
 
May 24, 2010 at 12:15 PM Post #7 of 12
Depends on how clean the amplification is. Considering how many people use a Pico as a DAC..
 
May 24, 2010 at 12:34 PM Post #8 of 12
Quote:
Depends on how clean the amplification is. Considering how many people use a Pico as a DAC..


Pico is a line of products, including a DAC-only unit, so I wouldn't assume a Pico amp is often being used as a DAC.
 
May 24, 2010 at 2:28 PM Post #9 of 12


Quote:
Pico is a line of products, including a DAC-only unit, so I wouldn't assume a Pico amp is often being used as a DAC.


Hmm. You may be right, but I think they were when it first came out.. I wish my memory was better :)
 
May 24, 2010 at 2:29 PM Post #10 of 12
If the first amp can't maintain the signal into any kind of load, then double amplification would presumably make the signal worse, since you are essentially amplifying the signal + error the second time around. However, most amplifier inputs present a higher impedance load than headphones, so unless the first amp is severely underpowered, the second amp could act as a sort of "buffer" for the tougher load the headphones present.
 
In some cases if the headphones are REALLY difficult to drive this might be advantageous; you could use the first amplifier to drive the more benign load of the second amplifier's input, and the second amplifier would take the load of the headphones.
 
IMO, you are probably better off using one amp for most loads, since it will probably be able to handle most loads fine, and you won't be getting any additional error added onto the signal (however small it probably is.)
 
May 24, 2010 at 8:09 PM Post #11 of 12


 
Quote:
If the first amp can't maintain the signal into any kind of load, then double amplification would presumably make the signal worse, since you are essentially amplifying the signal + error the second time around. However, most amplifier inputs present a higher impedance load than headphones, so unless the first amp is severely underpowered, the second amp could act as a sort of "buffer" for the tougher load the headphones present.
 
In some cases if the headphones are REALLY difficult to drive this might be advantageous; you could use the first amplifier to drive the more benign load of the second amplifier's input, and the second amplifier would take the load of the headphones.
 
IMO, you are probably better off using one amp for most loads, since it will probably be able to handle most loads fine, and you won't be getting any additional error added onto the signal (however small it probably is.)



good point.
 
there are different circuits for outputs that go into a preamp compared to outputs that are for driving a speaker.
and usually these circuits are designed to meet the needs of the impedance curve of whatever is being plugged into the output.
 
for instance.. speakers usually have a high impedance at the lower frequencies and then a sudden drop that gradually rises.
a quality amplifier would know this bit of information and would take some steps to 'match' the two pieces of equipment for a much better end-result.
 
the input of the second amp might have an entirely different impedance curve.. or simply the same shape but substantially higher in impedance.
and what the quote mentioned is that the first amplifier might try its hardest to push voltage into the impedance of the second amplifier but the situation is the same as the example below.
* you are trying to bench press more than what you can actually lift.. so instead of pushing the bar all the way up to the top, you get halfway up and start to struggle as you slowly lower the bar until it is resting on your chest or neck *
 
the first amplifier will try to 'lift' more impedance than it is capable of lifting.. so instead of reaching full power (or full audio detail) the voltage is very weak for some frequencies, which makes some 'tones' or 'notes' hard to hear.
presumably worse situations would be when the second amp doesnt get enough voltage to amplify a signal at all.. which is a total loss of audio.
 
in car audio you here things like an amplifier that has power at 2 ohms and even 1 ohms.
usually as the ohms gets lower the wattage increases.
but what if you went the other way?
eventually the ohms would get so high that the wattage reaches zero !
 
so speaking specifically..
if the first amplifier is only sending a few 'watts' at the impedance of 5 khz.. then 5 khz will be difficult to hear with your ear and 10 khz wont have enough 'watts' for the second amp to pick-up and amplify.
its like watching a very bright bulb start to die out.. but instead of going totally dead, the thing turns orange and red with the very low voltage applied.
THAT is the error being mentioned.
 
and i suppose two amplifiers might be made to specifically work together with eachother as a 'match' to offer an end-result that applies the same amount of voltage throughout the frequency spectrum.
 
you have to understand that speakers do not receive the same amount of power for every note that they play.. IDEALLY they should get the same amount of power because the voice coil is thermally capable of handling the power.
but realistically the impedance curve dictates that more power is required here at this low frequency compared to somewhere else on the impedance chart.
 
car audio is an easy example.
the lowest impedance of a speaker might be 3.9 ohms.. so you look at the amp and see 100 watts.
but the highest impedance of that speaker is 50 ohms.. so look again at your amp and see how many watts does your amp put out at 50 ohms !!
 
an honest way to match 'audiophile' pieces of hardware would be to find an amp that gives you 100 watts at the 50 ohms and then use an equalizer to remove excess power as you go down the impedance curve towards 3.9 ohms
 
(this is usually the trick they use to make those giant paper stage-woofers sound so loud and good)
 
to say things once again much more simple.. the speaker output might be designed completely backwards compared to the pre-amp output.
 
May 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM Post #12 of 12


Quote:
 


good point.
 
there are different circuits for outputs that go into a preamp compared to outputs that are for driving a speaker.
and usually these circuits are designed to meet the needs of the impedance curve of whatever is being plugged into the output.
 
for instance.. speakers usually have a high impedance at the lower frequencies and then a sudden drop that gradually rises.
a quality amplifier would know this bit of information and would take some steps to 'match' the two pieces of equipment for a much better end-result.
 
the input of the second amp might have an entirely different impedance curve.. or simply the same shape but substantially higher in impedance.
and what the quote mentioned is that the first amplifier might try its hardest to push voltage into the impedance of the second amplifier but the situation is the same as the example below.
* you are trying to bench press more than what you can actually lift.. so instead of pushing the bar all the way up to the top, you get halfway up and start to struggle as you slowly lower the bar until it is resting on your chest or neck *
 
the first amplifier will try to 'lift' more impedance than it is capable of lifting.. so instead of reaching full power (or full audio detail) the voltage is very weak for some frequencies, which makes some 'tones' or 'notes' hard to hear.
presumably worse situations would be when the second amp doesnt get enough voltage to amplify a signal at all.. which is a total loss of audio.
 
in car audio you here things like an amplifier that has power at 2 ohms and even 1 ohms.
usually as the ohms gets lower the wattage increases.
but what if you went the other way?
eventually the ohms would get so high that the wattage reaches zero !
 
so speaking specifically..
if the first amplifier is only sending a few 'watts' at the impedance of 5 khz.. then 5 khz will be difficult to hear with your ear and 10 khz wont have enough 'watts' for the second amp to pick-up and amplify.
its like watching a very bright bulb start to die out.. but instead of going totally dead, the thing turns orange and red with the very low voltage applied.
THAT is the error being mentioned.
 
and i suppose two amplifiers might be made to specifically work together with eachother as a 'match' to offer an end-result that applies the same amount of voltage throughout the frequency spectrum.
 
you have to understand that speakers do not receive the same amount of power for every note that they play.. IDEALLY they should get the same amount of power because the voice coil is thermally capable of handling the power.
but realistically the impedance curve dictates that more power is required here at this low frequency compared to somewhere else on the impedance chart.
 
car audio is an easy example.
the lowest impedance of a speaker might be 3.9 ohms.. so you look at the amp and see 100 watts.
but the highest impedance of that speaker is 50 ohms.. so look again at your amp and see how many watts does your amp put out at 50 ohms !!
 
an honest way to match 'audiophile' pieces of hardware would be to find an amp that gives you 100 watts at the 50 ohms and then use an equalizer to remove excess power as you go down the impedance curve towards 3.9 ohms
 
(this is usually the trick they use to make those giant paper stage-woofers sound so loud and good)
 
to say things once again much more simple.. the speaker output might be designed completely backwards compared to the pre-amp output.

 
-Amps (generally) try to be as linear as possible, they don't try to match an impedance curve because the FR of a speaker is based partially on their impedance curve (and has parts in the xover to fix problems with that) so making an amp 'amp' the frequencies with a higher impedance more would change the FR of the amp far from neutral.
-Input impedance of amplifiers doesn't really vary with frequency so the idea of losing certain frequencies when going from one to another doesn't make sense.
-the source (first amp in this case) outputs a certain voltage.  Depending on what it's driving (the impedance) will change how much current is output.  A high impedance will draw less current and be 'using' less wattage but they will do that's how they're designed to work.  That is, they expect less current (and therefore less wattage) for 'normal' operation than a headphone would for 'normal' operation.
-of course as you increase the impedance the wattage drops (also it only hits 0 when the impedance is infinite - that is when you have an open circuit!), that's simple math but that doesn't mean you're losing any information.
-if you designed your amp to output the same amount of current at any given frequency voiced to a particular speaker, you'd need to make sure your speakers had ruler flat sensitivity for all frequencies and you couldn't ever use a different speaker and expect remotely uncolored sound!
 
There is no problem with having two amps in a row other than - increased distortion or possibly summing their FR and possibly damaging the second amp by being overdriven.
 

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